[mindfarkk]

that's an interesting point Bytesmith. i am a student and have been working less in the last few years than ever before in my life (although not always electively, since finding any job at all was impossible for two of the last four years); i've been relying most on student loans to get by. by the time i get around to making any real money and paying the loans back (assuming that still happens) two or three years from now, i will be supporting another administration. that almost makes my *trillions of dollars in personal loan debt tolerable.

*exaggerated for effect. c. 2005, mfp

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')obody deserves anything for free.

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bytesmiths', 'S')o maybe they are deluded into thinking they would benefit under a flat tax. (Which falls into the "stupid" category.)

[JoeW]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rerere', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JoeW', 'I')t is starting to look like the consumption tax advocates are all bark and no bite...?

[Bytesmiths]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JoeW', 'I') was just commenting on how people were quick to stand up and say that they prefer the consumption tax, but not-so-quick to figure out if they actually stood to lose money on the deal.

[gg3]

TWilliam makes an interesting point by using the phrases "excessive consumption" and "excessive income." The common denominator is "excess." The key question is "When is enough, enough?"

Re. sales tax and drug dealers, pimps, etc.: The point isn't that Dealer McDope will keep a little calculator on him and say "Here's your dime bag, that'll be ten dollars plus... (click click click)... a dollar eighty in Federal Sales Tax, total is $11.80, will that be cash, check, or VISA?" The point is that Dealer McDope, after a hard day's work hooking kids on crack, will go buy stuff with his ill-gotten gains, and have to pay the sales tax on what he buys.

Problem with this though, is it starts to create a perverse incentive to tolerate certain types of predatory activities that are presently illegal. What happens when organized crime's income starts to provide a decent source of sales tax revenue to government...?

Re. "the rich." You want to know what rich really means? Here's an example I've been posting around here lately.

You're moderately successful, you have a house, you have $100k in equity in the house, and perhaps the same in your stock portfolio & retirement accounts. Give yourself a two-inch-tall mark on a graph.

The guy you presently think of as "rich" has a $3-million house, with $1 million in equity, and maybe another million in investments etc. Give him a twenty-inch-tall mark on the graph. Next to you, he looks like he has a lot, doesn't he...?

But in fact if you take a look at the income spread in America, the real aristocracy begins in the B-as-in-Big Billions. Take one of these fatcats and put his net worth on the same graph. His mark on the graph is EIGHT HUNDRED AND THIRTY THREE FEET HIGH.

Go out on the street and put a brick on the curb to mark a starting point, and pace off 833 feet. Put another brick on the curb at that point to mark it. Now go back to your starting point and make a mark that shows two inches and another at twenty inches. And look down the street to your second brick at 833 feet.

"Excess" doesn't even begin to describe that.

What we are talking about here is the difference between mere "wealth" on one hand, and overt "power" on the other hand.

[Bytesmiths]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'G')ive yourself a two-inch-tall mark on a graph...

Give him a twenty-inch-tall mark on the graph. Next to you, he looks like he has a lot, doesn't he...?

But in fact if you take a look at the income spread in America, the real aristocracy begins in the B-as-in-Big Billions. Take one of these fatcats and put his net worth on the same graph. His mark on the graph is EIGHT HUNDRED AND THIRTY THREE FEET HIGH.

[TrueKaiser]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', '
')Re. "the rich." You want to know what rich really means? Here's an example I've been posting around here lately.

You're moderately successful, you have a house, you have $100k in equity in the house, and perhaps the same in your stock portfolio & retirement accounts. Give yourself a two-inch-tall mark on a graph.

The guy you presently think of as "rich" has a $3-million house, with $1 million in equity, and maybe another million in investments etc. Give him a twenty-inch-tall mark on the graph. Next to you, he looks like he has a lot, doesn't he...?

But in fact if you take a look at the income spread in America, the real aristocracy begins in the B-as-in-Big Billions. Take one of these fatcats and put his net worth on the same graph. His mark on the graph is EIGHT HUNDRED AND THIRTY THREE FEET HIGH.

Go out on the street and put a brick on the curb to mark a starting point, and pace off 833 feet. Put another brick on the curb at that point to mark it. Now go back to your starting point and make a mark that shows two inches and another at twenty inches. And look down the street to your second brick at 833 feet.

"Excess" doesn't even begin to describe that.

What we are talking about here is the difference between mere "wealth" on one hand, and overt "power" on the other hand.

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')obody deserves anything for free.

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'T')William makes an interesting point by using the phrases "excessive consumption" and "excessive income." The common denominator is "excess." The key question is "When is enough, enough?"

Re. sales tax and drug dealers, pimps, etc.: The point isn't that Dealer McDope will keep a little calculator on him and say "Here's your dime bag, that'll be ten dollars plus... (click click click)... a dollar eighty in Federal Sales Tax, total is $11.80, will that be cash, check, or VISA?" The point is that Dealer McDope, after a hard day's work hooking kids on crack, will go buy stuff with his ill-gotten gains, and have to pay the sales tax on what he buys.

Problem with this though, is it starts to create a perverse incentive to tolerate certain types of predatory activities that are presently illegal. What happens when organized crime's income starts to provide a decent source of sales tax revenue to government...?

Re. "the rich." You want to know what rich really means? Here's an example I've been posting around here lately.

You're moderately successful, you have a house, you have $100k in equity in the house, and perhaps the same in your stock portfolio & retirement accounts. Give yourself a two-inch-tall mark on a graph.

The guy you presently think of as "rich" has a $3-million house, with $1 million in equity, and maybe another million in investments etc. Give him a twenty-inch-tall mark on the graph. Next to you, he looks like he has a lot, doesn't he...?

But in fact if you take a look at the income spread in America, the real aristocracy begins in the B-as-in-Big Billions. Take one of these fatcats and put his net worth on the same graph. His mark on the graph is EIGHT HUNDRED AND THIRTY THREE FEET HIGH.

Go out on the street and put a brick on the curb to mark a starting point, and pace off 833 feet. Put another brick on the curb at that point to mark it. Now go back to your starting point and make a mark that shows two inches and another at twenty inches. And look down the street to your second brick at 833 feet.

"Excess" doesn't even begin to describe that.

What we are talking about here is the difference between mere "wealth" on one hand, and overt "power" on the other hand.

[dmtu]

Simple. I know how much I put away this year and approximately what I spent. Assuming that what I spent is all taxed (to include food and services) I will pay 3500 more a year (@13%). Put me in the 55,000 to 75,000 bracket. The rich will still make out because you can bet your ass they put away more of their disposable income than the average Joe. Yes they spend more but typically a lower percentage than the rest of us in relation to total income. Seems to me that the poor will be hit horribly hard, the rich will do just as well as usual and, the middle class will grunt under the weight of the world.

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dmtu', 'S')imple. I know how much I put away this year and approximately what I spent. Assuming that what I spent is all taxed (to include food and services) I will pay 3500 more a year (@13%). Put me in the 55,000 to 75,000 bracket. The rich will still make out because you can bet your ass they put away more of their disposable income than the average Joe. Yes they spend more but typically a lower percentage than the rest of us in relation to total income. Seems to me that the poor will be hit horribly hard, the rich will do just as well as usual and, the middle class will grunt under the weight of the world.

[Tyler_JC]

Rich is 25% more than I make. That's the definition of rich to most people. If I'm lower middle class, rich is 75,000+ a year. Super rich is 100,000+ a year. That's crazy. Don't go up to someone earning 80k a year in New York City and call him rich. The cost of living is different in each state. That's why federal taxes suck. They tax people equally regardless of where they live. That doesn't make any sense to me. Someone earning $100,000 a year in Kansas is a lot "richer" than someone earning $100,000 in LA.

Middle class people are often called rich by their lower class counterparts. This raises the taxes of a lot of not rich people to the level of the rich. Us "grunters" are paying higher taxes than any American of our class in history.

[Bytesmiths]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'U')s "grunters" are paying higher taxes than any American of our class in history.

[dmtu]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dmtu', 'S')imple. I know how much I put away this year and approximately what I spent. Assuming that what I spent is all taxed (to include food and services) I will pay 3500 more a year (@13%). Put me in the 55,000 to 75,000 bracket. The rich will still make out because you can bet your ass they put away more of their disposable income than the average Joe. Yes they spend more but typically a lower percentage than the rest of us in relation to total income. Seems to me that the poor will be hit horribly hard, the rich will do just as well as usual and, the middle class will grunt under the weight of the world.

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dmtu', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dmtu', 'S')imple. I know how much I put away this year and approximately what I spent. Assuming that what I spent is all taxed (to include food and services) I will pay 3500 more a year (@13%). Put me in the 55,000 to 75,000 bracket. The rich will still make out because you can bet your ass they put away more of their disposable income than the average Joe. Yes they spend more but typically a lower percentage than the rest of us in relation to total income. Seems to me that the poor will be hit horribly hard, the rich will do just as well as usual and, the middle class will grunt under the weight of the world.

[TrueKaiser]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dmtu', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dmtu', 'S')imple. I know how much I put away this year and approximately what I spent. Assuming that what I spent is all taxed (to include food and services) I will pay 3500 more a year (@13%). Put me in the 55,000 to 75,000 bracket. The rich will still make out because you can bet your ass they put away more of their disposable income than the average Joe. Yes they spend more but typically a lower percentage than the rest of us in relation to total income. Seems to me that the poor will be hit horribly hard, the rich will do just as well as usual and, the middle class will grunt under the weight of the world.

[dmtu]

If I was a corporation I would take advantage of buying the bastard politicians too. Not blaming them, I'm blaming the corrupted system. The sooner everyone stops sucking the ass of the duopoly the better. I have a feeling PO will finally awaken the sheeple, perhaps sooner than I would like.

"HEY HEY HEY what's that game you play
will it make me a poor man?
cause I got an extra dime and I lose it every time
maybe I'm wrong but I think this whip is too long"

COC

[Kingcoal]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JoeW', 'T')he current graduated income tax in place is largely beneficial to lower-income and middle-income families. The upper income individuals & families are taking it up the wazoo, and all government statistics available confirm this.

[JBinKC]

I know the Europeans complain about the high prices paid for gasoline compared to America but I believe it is hidden in higher taxes in other areas here in the states. I pay about 55% of my total income in taxes (excluding gas taxes) and virtually get no health coverage with those taxes paid.

What are your property, (VAT)sales, or income taxes for instance.