[TomSaidak]

Ludi Wrote:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') lot.....

[TomSaidak]

Kublikhan wrote:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o you are arguing for the US to give up eating meat?

[TomSaidak]

Sorry for the delay, but I had to wait for some people to get back to me with answers regarding kenaf.

Is TDP THE answer? No.
Can it be used as PART of an answer? YES.

The issues around TDP mostly circle around feedstock. It comes down to a choice of how to use materials. Recycle plastic, don’t recycle glass and fill up landfills or convert plastic, recycle glass and really push on using glass, not plastic. You can find good arguments in either direction. Either way it is a choice.

Some of the apprehension around CDP/TDP cycle around the 10:1 Green Revolution ratio. We do NOT eat oil. We use it to move food, mill, till, plow, butcher, refrigerate, cool etc. A lot of the energy in that is NOT from oil but NG and electricity. A significant part of that energy budget is transportation. Someone on this board pointed out the aggriculural transportation budget for oil was 16% of US consumption. I was watching the Discovery Channel, and they pointed out the one area in transportation that has not changed in like 30 years was the 5 wheeler truck. Shifting just the SHAPE of the cabin to something a lot more aerodynamic could cut fuel consumption by up to 50%. That alone would drop US oil consumption rates by up to 13%. Electrifying trains could get us another 3% or so.
Ludi –
I have read up more on the soil and fertilization issue. Upshot, manure isn’t the big solution. Nor is our current way of fertilizing. The hint in that is your figures on rock forms of fertilizing. I read up on erosion, and it comes down to a number of issues, most of them solvable by changing the way we plow, and what we do with the left over parts of the plants. The last big technical hurdle is waste dirt and runoff. If we change how we fertilize (use long lasting solids that get disked into the soil), we can even solve SOME of that problem. Adding a reverse moat (so it collects run off) would go a long way to solve the last bit of the problem by providing a controlled collection point for dirt. Finally, we need a way to condition waste dirt so it can be reintroduced in far away places in a manner that does NOT cause an ecological disaster. Another easy fix is only allow free range cattle. That will drop the need for soy by 95% and corn by about 60%. Of course the numbers there are a bit shaky as I do not know how much of that goes to pigs. That would also help drop our Green Revolution ratio to 9:1 or so.

Back to CDP/TDP…. As part of the solution, it has to be part of a larger strategy. As strategies are added, CDP/TDP becomes a larger part of the solution.
C/TDP
Contribution---Strategy
19.2% ----No change in vehicles, no kenaf, no manure
28.46%---Kenaf used as feedstock, no manure, no change in vehicles
39.28%----No change in vehicles, manure and kenaf used as feedstock.
38.19%----PHEV/BEV mandated, no manure or kenaf feedstock.
47.44%----PHEV/BEV mandated, kenaf used as feedstock, no manure.
65.47%---PHEV/BEV mandated, kenaf and manure used as feedstock.
78.5%----PHEV/BEV and change in 5 Wheelers mandated, kenaf and manure used as feedstock.

One note on kenaf, CWT states that they will be testing how there process works on cellulose. MY figures are based on a straight BTU conversion. CWT figures are supposed to be released later this year.

Anyhoo….. AS the table above indicates, C/TDP can be anything from minor player to a major player depending on what else happens in the world. At this point I would strongly advocate the widespread use of C/TDP. The numbers can be much higher if we do NOT use feedstock for electricity as there are other ways to make electricity.
AS for the economics, cost to build CDP plants to cover the above percentages would be $440 Billion. Compared to $5 Trillion for oil exploration just for US share of world oil consumption, that is 10 times cheaper. This would fix oil at or about $100/bbl equivalent, all of it at adding to US GDP, and NOT our trade deficit. Currently, TDP oil gets the $42.00/BBL tax credit that other biofuels enjoy, which will bring down the price to $58.00/bbl equivalent. The big problem will be as the US stops importing oil, thus dropping demand, oil prices will likely drop, leading the “angry villagers” to question whether “this trip is worth it.” The counterweight will be the improvement in the US economy as our trade deficit drops and we create a domestic industry with revenues of $300 Billion annually.
Just you wait, ‘Enry ‘Iggins, Just you wait…….
Failure to adopt waste and or biodiesel policies will not lead to a US collapse. The US at worst will have a bad 10 years as we shift from imported oil to coal derived oil and increase drilling. Global warming and air pollution will be the big threats. Not peak oil. Nazi Germany fought WWII on synthetic oil, and did not lose the war for lack of oil.

[TomSaidak]

I wasn't gone, I was lurking and thinking . I hit epiphany as to HOW to organize stuff this morning. Also, RL has been a b@#$@. In the last two weeks, my wife has gone to a funeral, and is getting a biopsy on Monday for lymphoma. Plus I started a long term sub gig teaching ELA full time, which I have never done before. Since last July, life has not been either stellar or kind in our household.....

Interesting question, and I am pondering how to answer. I figure neither one of us is really a chemist or a physicist.......

Methane from poop has been around a long time. I remember getting a book on "how to" energy independance back in '79, and lots of chapters were devoted to the straight poop on poop. Human manure is the least energetic, cow manure is fairly energetic, and pigs practically poop energy. Just google the BTU ratings. Sewage to energy is more about sewage to safe manure then sewage to energy. By converting some small fraction of the sewage to methane, the sewage becomes "treated" as in safe to either release or use as fertilizer. The part about the methane is that properly done, your EROI is about 0, i.e., you don't have to buy power to heat and manage the conversion process. Done really well, you can sell some electricity back to the grid. No real hoodoo there ( or should that be hoopoo??).

Okay, taking that sewage sludge even after methane production, you have a LOT of long chain carbohydrates/hydrocarbons molecules, such as proteins and DNA. C/TDP BREAKS up those chains into SHORT molecular chains. Long molecular chains we call things like meat, vegetable oil or plastic. Short molecular chains we call things like naptha, gasoline, kerosene or diesel. TDP literally does this by 'cooking' the feedstock. When you cook meat, the reason the flavor changes is that you are "denaturing" the proteins. C/TDP "denatures" the long chains into short chains.
Two other places you can see this - fire and sugar. If you burn a log, you are starting a complicated situation that works likes this...
Wood does NOT burn directly. According to a UK fire department documentary, when wood gets heated enough, the wood "denatures" into short chains that are released as a plasma, which interacts with oxygen to produce the flame you see.
A 2nd way you can see this is with sugar and sulfuric acid. Take some table sugar (long chains) and add a little sulfuric acid. The sugar "denatures", produces carbon, a big stink, and LOTS of heat. IF you ever try this at home - read up on it first for safety guidelines and amounts. This is a VERY energetic (exothermic) reaction.

As for being hairbraned, keep in mind I am in no danger of going bald.........

[Pops]

http://www.canadianbusiness.com/markets ... =D96NG8JG1

This is not a good thing overall I think. Perhaps the right plan at the right time in the wrong place?

Maybe premature depolymerization?

[aahala2]

From the numbers in the article, it appears the plant
was able to generation losses in excess of $2 million
per employee and in less than five years since the plant
opened.

Who do they think they are? GM?

My cost savings idea for any such future plant is to
hire the employees, pay them $300,000 a year until
you run out of money and not build the plant at all.
Much cheaper.

[highlander]

I thought they were taking the waste from a turkey rendering plant and attempting to make biodiesel from it. Where did you get your info Pstarr? Still 150 million pounds of turkey offal must smell awful.
I doubt it helps profitability when petrol diesel goes from 4.50/gal down to 2.50/gal. Very few people will pay $4 a gallon for locally produced fuel when they can buy the good imported variety for $2.50
The story is being repeated all through the alternative fuels sector. two years of cheap dino diesel will put almost all the biodiesel producers out of business. Will anyone be surprised when petrol based fuel jumps back up after the competition is crushed? I really doubt there will be another chance for alternative fuels. Big oil is sealing our fate with theirs.

[Pops]

As I remember Tyson had a bunch of ooy gooy turkey guts that were a liability and tried to turn them into an asset - not unlike hog farmers building methane digesters, almond hullers and egg ranchers getting together to make compost, etc..

Tyson, as the backer, wasn't trying to corner the market on fuel, save the world from PO, or any such cause, they were just trying to make more money. Most innovation has the same motive.

Considering the raw material was free, the balance sheet is probably worse than advertised. All in all it is too bad, industrial food is going to be around a while and any improvement in efficiency would be a good thing.

I could have some facts wrong if anyone cares to check.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '.').. and thus should be part of a national tax-level commitment to cleaning up our environment.

No one is gong to pay us for our waste. Kids don't expect a gold star for picking up their dirty clothes and putting them in the hamper. Why should we?

[highlander]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'N')o one is gong to pay us for our waste. Kids don't expect a gold star for picking up their dirty clothes and putting them in the hamper. Why should we?

[Brendonmcm]

I've been browsing the Internet recently and came across some interesting articles regarding the above. Incidentally, I'm no "expert", so the following observations are simply my own thoughts, but could mean lower energy costs and reduced CO2 emissions, world-wide!

The first articles refer to Thermal Depolymerisation (TDP), the Thermal Conversion Process (TCP) and Pyrolysis Reforming. These processes recycle almost all waste materials ,including rubber and plastics, to reproduce renewable fuels, thereby minimising the environmental effects from the combustion of waste or the need for landfill sites.

The second article regarded Nikola Tesla, who was regarded as the father of modern day electricity. He invented, among many things, a generator, capable of producing electricity from "thin air", which, because of its portability, could be set up anywhere in the world and generate free electricity for all consumers. The process would mean the near 3 billion people on the planet, who currently do not have electricity, would, for the first time, have access to electricity

I know that there are companies already involved in TDP, I'm also aware that there are companies selling plans for Tesla Generators, but ideally everyone should have access to this free electricity in their own homes, offices, factories, schools, libraries, hospitals, etc., where electricity could be used, for little or no cost! There would be little or no need for nuclear energy, gas, coal, diesel, petrol or oil, or the harmful emissions they create. Furthermore, I'm led to believe that the planet will run out of fossil fuels in the next twenty or so years, so we need to look for alternative, affordable, long term solutions now.

IF we produce free electricity without using fossil fuels, would the knock on effects result in tumbling prices and lower inflation? Would it help to create world-wide employment opportunities? Would it help end the current financial recession, which, I'm led to believe, is caused by high fuel prices? Having said that, if we continue extracting the remaining fossil fuels from the earth, the surplus fuel produced could still be exported to other countries, that hadn't yet converted to "Tesla Power". However, that point is academic as fossil fuels will eventually run out.

I wonder if the world's Governments have looked at either of the above processes, or considered the massive ecological and financial benefits that could be made to our country and the world, were these processes implemented globally! As I said earlier,I'm no "expert", but I'm sure these systems or processes could be implemented for the benefit of all mankind. I realise all of these changes will not take place overnight, but I'd like to see the World's Governments promoting cleaner, cheaper, safer, renewable energy and a safer environment.You can read more by searching for Nikola Tesla, the Tesla Generator, Thermal Depolymerisation, the Thermal Conversion Process and Pyrolysis Reforming on any internet search engine.
Brendonmcm

[Cloud9]

Show me somebody that has it up and running and I am game. I would be the first to say that our ancestors were every bit as smart as we are.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')GUELPH—The city is taking a hard look at utilizing advanced waste-to-energy—or energy-from-waste—technologies as part of its future waste management strategy.

What those technologies and facilities might look like is not yet known, but a survey of residents conducted in September found a strong majority of respondents favour the approach as a way to divert waste that can not be recycled or composted away from landfill sites.

Rather than getting specific about what types of waste-to-energy technologies might be considered, the survey used the general waste-to-energy term. There are a number of these technologies in use around the world, including gasification, depolymerization, and pyrolysis—all carried out within sophisticated facilities with highly advanced contaminant collection systems.

While many of these processes use intense heat to break down garbage, such as plastic bottles, medical waste, or automotive tires, into useable energy, the thermal treatment they use goes far beyond what we think of as incineration, a University of Guelph expert in solid waste management said.

"When you say incineration people get really worried that we are going to have dioxins and furans," said Brajesh Dubey, a professor in the U of G's school of engineering. "Nowadays, our air pollution control system has improved so much that it is not that much of a problem. We are capturing it all within the plant itself."

Heather Connell is Guelph's manager of integrated services in solid waste resources. She explained the city is looking at alternatives to sending waste to landfill sites. Material that is not compostable or recyclable generally ends up in landfill, but waste-to-energy technology can keep much of that waste out of landfills and put it to good use generating electricity or other forms of renewable energy.

[Tanada]

This came out last week, it sounds like someone is finally making money off of the Thermo Depolymerization process.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')yrolyx AG, a Munich, Germany-based company involved in the recovery of carbon black from scrap tires, has announced a partnership with Colorado-based CH2E Group. CH2E Group owns what it calls the largest tire landfill in the United States with a volume of roughly 600,000 tons.

Under the letter of intent signed Feb. 18, 2015, Pyrolyx says it will start by erecting a production plant on CH2E’s site in Hudson, Colorado. CH2E will provide shredded scrap tires and the land required to build the plant.

CH2E’s proposed Colorado facility uses tires as its primary source of raw material. CH2E’s thermal depolymerization system has been designed to convert waste tires into diesel fuel, activated carbon and steel. The company says its activated carbon has been formulated to be used in carbon injection systems or where there is a need for stringent flue emission controls.

Commissioning for the Pyrolyx project is scheduled for 2016, after which Pyrolyx, together with CH2E, will have the right to build further production lines for the recovery of carbon black from end-of-life tires. Pyrolyx claims that by today's standards this will be the world's largest plant for the production of recovered carbon black.

Pyrolyx has developed a patented process in which carbon black is obtained from scrap tires in what it calls a sustainable closed recycling loop. The carbon black can then be used to manufacture new tires.

“By partnering with the CH2E Group, we have now taken the strategically important step of entering the U.S. market, the second-largest in the world,” says Niels Raeder, CEO of Pyrolyx. “With Pyrolyx carbon black now having been successfully tested by the tire industry, we'll be able to produce a significant amount of recovered carbon black in the U.S. when the plant is complete. This will make a significant contribution to reducing the world's scrap tires.”