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Bookends of an Era?

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby AAA » Wed 04 Mar 2009, 13:11:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ubercrap', '
')Whoa, I'm not sure where to start, but I think your perceptions have been warped by the credit/housing bubble. Even CA wasn't so out of control in the past. It sounds like you are a young, high earner, but feel cheated a bit. That might be justified to some extent, but try to keep things in perspective, and a grip on reality!


Im not worried about my perceptions. Thankfully I was raised in a small town in New Mexico and then spent 4 years of college in Oklahoma before moving to the city, so I know what is "outside the city limits". Unfortunately most people that are raised in the city limits don't know life exists outside the city.

I am young (26 yrs old) and consder myself a lower-middle class earner and my wife does not work. I don't feel cheated at all. Our mortgage will be paid off next year and have no other debt. We are one of the families that are taking advantage of California rather than California taking advantage of families.

The reality is most of the major cities have similiar circumstances. Maybe not as high but same story.
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby Ludi » Wed 04 Mar 2009, 14:39:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '
')You don't get it. The US is going into a deep, harsh recession. The last thing the government should be doing in a recession is raising taxes.



A slight rollback of tax breaks for the top 2% of income earners.

Boo hoo hoo!

I will never "get" people who are so worried about the top 2%. :roll:
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby Pops » Wed 04 Mar 2009, 15:06:40

Look, I was a partner in a very small ad/production agency back in the bad old days of the '90s before the Great Tax Giveaway to the rich. We employed +/- 12 people for a dozen years and my partner and I made about 2.5x what our least well paid employee made - around $125k in the best years, much less in the bad.

We provided health insurance to our people because the way the system is set up in this country we felt it was our responsibility. Now $75k ain't a bad income for a guy like me (in the location we were) with no degree, raised by a couple of janitors and I'll be frank, I felt I had more at stake to loose so paying a larger portion in tax than our employees did seemed fair.

Even under that "onerous" tax burden, which seems set to resume in a couple of years and so many are ranting about, we had little problem keeping that many people employed and there is one reason; we weren't looking to be millionaires taking home 20,50,200 times what our employees took home.

Sure, we took the risk so were entitled to a bigger take in the good times but we also took the hit when the books went red - a strange concept it seems lately.

So I reject the idea "Small" businesses will simply sit on their money. "Small" businesses owners are those who care about their people and share the work as well as the rewards in a fair way.


BTW, our biggest burden in the late '90s was not taxes but the escalating cost of health insurance, I know we should have just thrown our employees under the bus like everyone else to keep that profit margin up - I guess we weren't very good businessmen...
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby AAA » Wed 04 Mar 2009, 15:45:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'L')ook, I was a partner in a very small ad/production agency back in the bad old days of the '90s before the Great Tax Giveaway to the rich.


The 90s were an extraordinary period of growth for the US economy. Budget deficits were declining rapidly and turning into surpluses and economic growth was high. The 90s also began one of the largest run-up in the housing markets.

Everyone was doing good.

Today is a different story.
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby Ludi » Wed 04 Mar 2009, 15:55:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AAA', '
')Today is a different story.



So we should worry about the rich more? Is that what you're saying? Don't you think we should be more concerned with the other 98%?
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Wed 04 Mar 2009, 16:06:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AAA', '
')
It is clear Obama wants to destroy the US which will also destroy the US govt. His support of a unionized workforce displays that.


A unionized worforce is the only thing that can save the US. Unions are the only means by which workers get paid a decent wage. Without a union, labor gets exploited to work at slave wages, just look at China or India. A future where Americans are exploited in the same way as Chindians is tantamount to its destruction, so Unions are an essential part of retaining some of the character of America.

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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby Pops » Wed 04 Mar 2009, 16:07:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AAA', 'T')he 90s were an extraordinary period of growth for the US economy.

Funny, all during the time of Small Business Killing Taxes.

Bushes giveaway was set to sunset in '10 and the people it was designed to help have certainly done OK. It served it's purpose and "Helping Small Business" was another of Rove's masterful Bumper sticker slogans that obviously did it's job.


BTW, our biggest expense back then was not our personal taxes, it was the steadily escalating cost of insurance for our employees.
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby AAA » Wed 04 Mar 2009, 16:10:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')So we should worry about the rich more? Is that what you're saying? Don't you think we should be more concerned with the other 98%?


You are twisting my words. I am not saying help the "rich", or help homeowners, or help corporations and forget about the 98% My point is don't increase taxes for anyone especially the ones who can actually get us out of the mess.

Im not a high earner or trust-fund baby or wall-street guy or anthing other than a regular peson who works hard and makes prudent decisions with my money. I don't want to pay for people or companies that made bad decisions and expect to be bailout by the ones who didn't make bad decisions.

Let bad companies fail and let bad consumers fail.
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby AAA » Wed 04 Mar 2009, 16:14:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '
')A unionized worforce is the only thing that can save the US. Unions are the only means by which workers get paid a decent wage.


Unions killed the Big 3. The auto companies were failing long before the economic downturn. Why? Because of the extreme pension benefits and highpay of union employees.
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby Ludi » Wed 04 Mar 2009, 16:17:04

Why do you think money in the hands of 2% of the population will "help get us out of this"? Don't you think money in the hands of more people who will distribute it around the economy would be more helpful?
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Wed 04 Mar 2009, 16:20:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AAA', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')So we should worry about the rich more? Is that what you're saying? Don't you think we should be more concerned with the other 98%?


You are twisting my words. I am not saying help the "rich", or help homeowners, or help corporations and forget about the 98% My point is don't increase taxes for anyone especially the ones who can actually get us out of the mess.

Im not a high earner or trust-fund baby or wall-street guy or anthing other than a regular person who works hard and makes prudent [/b[b]]decisions with my money. I don't want to pay for people or companies that made bad decisions and expect to be bailout by the ones who didn't make bad decisions.

Let bad companies fail and let bad consumers fail.


Like investing in big oil?
A P.Oer for profit is a prudent investor?

I think you guys are freaked out your P.O dream is turning into a rapid crash nightmare.

Looking for a scapegoat at the same time as clutching at any possible scenario where the especially us people are OK.
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby AAA » Wed 04 Mar 2009, 16:21:24

That 2% are the ones paying 95% of the taxes and own companies or manage companies that employee majority of the workforce.

We saw the stimulus checks had almost no affect whatsoever and continuing to go down that path is dangerous.

We are running in circles. I enjoyed the discussion but allowing it to go any further will be futile on my end.

I wont convince you all and you wont convince me. Each to his own. :)
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Wed 04 Mar 2009, 16:24:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AAA', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '
')A unionized worforce is the only thing that can save the US. Unions are the only means by which workers get paid a decent wage.


Unions killed the Big 3. The auto companies were failing long before the economic downturn. Why? Because of the extreme pension benefits and highpay of union employees.


So who killed Toyota? Or Daimler? Or Mitsubishi?

The Unions didn't kill Auto companies, the end of cheap energy killed them, along with a top heavy Capitalist economy that no longer has room for growth to pay off on pension funds or individual investments made by rich folks.

Unions are a scapegoat of the capitalist class. If you really want to look for the ones who sucked the wealth out, its the stockholders of companies like GM, who expected to make money for simply sitting on their butts while they held some stock.

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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Wed 04 Mar 2009, 16:25:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AAA', 'T')hat 2% are the ones paying 95% of the taxes and own companies or manage companies that employee majority of the workforce.

We saw the stimulus checks had almost no affect whatsoever and continuing to go down that path is dangerous.

We are running in circles. I enjoyed the discussion but allowing it to go any further will be futile on my end.

I wont convince you all and you wont convince me. Each to his own. :)

Each to his own.... mmmm?

Doesn't that mean a run on the markets& banks? Leading to instant sudden crash?
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby AAA » Wed 04 Mar 2009, 16:26:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', '
')Like investing in big oil?
A P.Oer for profit is a prudent investor?

I think you guys are freaked out your P.O dream is turning into a rapid crash nightmare.

Looking for a scapegoat at the same time as clutching at any possible scenario where the especially us people are OK.


I'm confused. What do you mean?
Last edited by AAA on Wed 04 Mar 2009, 16:36:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Wed 04 Mar 2009, 16:27:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AAA', 'T')hat 2% are the ones paying 95% of the taxes and own companies or manage companies that employee majority of the workforce.

We saw the stimulus checks had almost no affect whatsoever and continuing to go down that path is dangerous.

We are running in circles. I enjoyed the discussion but allowing it to go any further will be futile on my end.

I wont convince you all and you wont convince me. Each to his own. :)


The difference is in who you each convince during the debate. Ludi convinced me. She's right and you are wrong. :-)

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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby Ludi » Wed 04 Mar 2009, 16:29:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AAA', '
')I wont convince you all and you wont convince me. Each to his own. :)



Agree to disagree. But when you post in apparent concern for the upper 2% and call them "middle class" I will jump on you. :)
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Wed 04 Mar 2009, 16:31:01

If the education system& employment markets were fair then the capitalist survival of the fittest might make some evolutionary sense.

It's what your parents had& who you are connected to that got you into the situation of being one of the worlds richest 1%.

Nature dosen't give a rats whether it's you or me or the last amazons who survive.

In the end it looks like nature is going to make a selection; not us.
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Wed 04 Mar 2009, 16:32:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AAA', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', '
')Like investing in big oil?
A P.Oer for profit is a prudent investor?

I think you guys are freaked out your P.O dream is turning into a rapid crash nightmare.

Looking for a scapegoat at the same time as clutching at any possible scenario where the especially us people are OK.


I'm confused. What do mean?


Either that or you just don't want to.
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby Pops » Wed 04 Mar 2009, 16:45:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AAA', 'T')hat 2% are the ones paying 95% of the taxes

That doesn't seem to out of line considering what they own:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hese data suggest that wealth is concentrated in the hands of a small number of families. The wealthiest 1 percent of families owns roughly 34.3% of the nation's net worth, the top 10% of families owns over 71%, and the bottom 40% of the population owns way less than 1%.

http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/facult ... wealth.htm

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AAA', 'a')nd own companies or manage companies that employee majority of the workforce.

I thought that was Small Business?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AAA', 'W')e saw the stimulus checks had almost no affect whatsoever and continuing to go down that path is dangerous.

I disagree, they were a great stimulus for China because people spent the windfall to buy more crap. Some few might have been smart and paid down debts - all in all more money seemed to have led to less jobs.

I don't know nothing about such things but it wouldn't seem giving people anything but jobs is going to have much the same effect.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AAA', 'E')ach to his own. :)
I understand, been there many times. :)
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