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Bookends of an Era?

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Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby TreeFarmer » Tue 03 Mar 2009, 18:45:57

The beginnings of the big federal government can be traced back to a president from Illinois, will the beginning of the end of big federal government be timed to a president from Illinois?

I am not saying that Obama is for a smaller federal government, just that circumstances might force the role of the federal government to begin a substantial decline during his administration.

It would be ironic for big federal government to begin and end with a president from Illinois.

TF
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby Jotapay » Tue 03 Mar 2009, 19:01:20

Could be.
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby gnm » Tue 03 Mar 2009, 19:19:32

Perhaps another similarity will be that they both preside over a civil war... 8O

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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby AAA » Tue 03 Mar 2009, 19:25:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TreeFarmer', 'T')he beginnings of the big federal government can be traced back to a president from Illinois, will the beginning of the end of big federal government be timed to a president from Illinois?

I am not saying that Obama is for a smaller federal government, just that circumstances might force the role of the federal government to begin a substantial decline during his administration.

It would be ironic for big federal government to begin and end with a president from Illinois.

TF


It is clear Obama wants to destroy the US which will also destroy the US govt. His support of a unionized workforce displays that but below are just a few more examples from his budget proposal.

Increasing taxes for those making more money.
Reducing homeowner incentives
Reducing charitable contribution incentives
Raising corporate taxes
etc...
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby Jotapay » Tue 03 Mar 2009, 19:28:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AAA', 'I')t is clear Obama wants to destroy the US which will also destroy the US govt.


Clinton and Bush-2 did plenty themselves before Obama came on the scene.
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby AAA » Tue 03 Mar 2009, 19:31:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jotapay', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AAA', 'I')t is clear Obama wants to destroy the US which will also destroy the US govt.


Clinton and Bush-2 did plenty themselves before Obama came on the scene.


No doubt about that. Back-to-Back Bush then Obama seems to be a bad combination thus far. I didn't think it could get worse than Bush but Obama has recently took the lead.
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 03 Mar 2009, 19:37:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AAA', '
')Increasing taxes for those making more money..



Taxes on the wealthy will still be quite low compared to top rates in the past.

http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby AAA » Tue 03 Mar 2009, 19:50:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AAA', '
')Increasing taxes for those making more money..



Taxes on the wealthy will still be quite low compared to top rates in the past.

http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php


Yes but increases taxes on individuals or corporations during a recession with historical implications is a scary thing to do.

We all know that a recovery cannot take place until housing and the financial markets bottom and begin to rebound.

Obviously Joe Farmer in mid-America buying 200 shares of GE stock doesn't move the market nor does Warren Buffet investing $3 billion in GE and $5 billion in GS. Its much bigger than that.

Obama is taking money away from the ones who will actually use the money to help our economy recover. And then he takes it and pumps into AIG, GM, or some other soon to be worthless company.
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 03 Mar 2009, 19:55:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AAA', '
')
Obama is taking money away from the ones who will actually use the money to help our economy recover.



I bet the wealthy will still have plenty of money to spend. Maybe the porkulus will even get some money into the hands of the poor and middle class, who will have even more reason to spend it than the wealthy do.

Don't worry so much about the rich, they will be fine.
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby AAA » Tue 03 Mar 2009, 20:04:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')Don't worry so much about the rich, they will be fine.


I am not worried about the rich. I am worried about the middle class who earns over $250,000

In the major metro areas, a family that earns $250,000 is basically middle class if not lower middle class.

When a 1,400 sqft house in a decent neighborhood costs $600,000 a couple earning $250,000 definitely isn't rich or even upper middle class. They are working their tails off just to keep their kids in a safe neighborhood and in a so-so school system. Whether we like it or not that is reality for many of our cities.

I encourage many of my friends to move out of the city. It just doesn't make sense for 99% of people.
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby Pops » Tue 03 Mar 2009, 20:12:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AAA', 'O')bama is taking money away from the ones who will actually use the money to help our economy recover.

My take is they would take the money to feather their own nest.

Tell me how they have helped expand the economy (the bottom 80-90%) in a positive way over the last few years.

Tell me how that bottom 80% have fared better.

Tell me how the top few percent have invested those tax breaks and how much better off we all are than 10 years ago...


And to your most recent post, if a person can't afford the neighborhood they should find another and rethink their Plan.
Last edited by Anonymous on Tue 03 Mar 2009, 20:27:34, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Topic moved from Current Events by Shannymara
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby AAA » Tue 03 Mar 2009, 20:43:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AAA', 'O')bama is taking money away from the ones who will actually use the money to help our economy recover.

My take is they would take the money to feather their own nest.


How do they feather their own nest? They buy stuff that people like us produce, extract, farm, or breed.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '
')Tell me how they have helped expand the economy (the bottom 80-90%) in a positive way over the last few years.

Tell me how that bottom 80% have fared better.


Ever hear of small business owners? They represent 99.7% of all employer firms, employ about half of all private sector employees, pay nearly 45% of total US private payroll, generated 60-80% of net new jobs annually over the last decade, hire 40% of high tech workers, produced 13 times more patents per employee than large patenting firms, etc....

http://www.sba.gov

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '
')Tell me how the top few percent have invested those tax breaks and how much better off we all are than 10 years ago...


10 years ago we weren't on the verge of a total world-wide financial collapse. Even in 1982 it wasn't as serious as it is now. Even the 29 crash wasn't this big on a world-wide scale.

An element that many people are overlooking is the Baby Boomers.

Baby Boomers have already begun to retire and will pull their money out of the stock market. How will the markets rebound when you have 76 million middle/upper class investors that no longer will invest in the markets and begin to stop spending money like it is going out of style?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '
')And to your most recent post, if a person can't afford the neighborhood they should find another and rethink their Plan.

You must have missed the last line of my post. I encourage people to do just that.
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 03 Mar 2009, 21:08:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AAA', '
')In the major metro areas, a family that earns $250,000 is basically middle class if not lower middle class.


Oh come on! That represents about the top 2% of income-earners in the US.

"Lower middle class"? 8O
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 03 Mar 2009, 21:17:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AAA', '
')Ever hear of small business owners? .



Just FYI, I'm a small business owner, as is Pops.


If a small business owner can't endure a 3% increase in taxes on his personal income I'm afraid I can't cry for him very much. The tax increase is not on his business but on his personal income. If he can't scrape by on $250,000 a year personal income I'm afraid there's no help for him.
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby AlexdeLarge » Tue 03 Mar 2009, 21:55:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'D')on't worry so much about the rich, they will be fine.


Thats exactly right. The rich (Also known as Entrepreneurs) will withdraw their support, shut down their business, shield their Income, and sit on their hands.

You are going to be introduced to John Galt.

I can promise you this. Wealth does "not" trickle up and a poor man cannot give you job.
Viddy well, little brother. Viddy well.
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 03 Mar 2009, 22:03:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')If a small business owner can't endure a 3% increase in taxes on his personal income I'm afraid I can't cry for him very much. The tax increase is not on his business but on his personal income. If he can't scrape by on $250,000 a year personal income I'm afraid there's no help for him.


You don't get it. The US is going into a deep, harsh recession. The last thing the government should be doing in a recession is raising taxes. The last time a president was foolish enough to raise taxes and pass protectionist legislation after the economy started to contract it was Hoover, and we got the great depression.

The US has gotten out of every past recession by cutting taxes to grow the economy. The economy was FAR WORSE when Reagan took over from Carter, and Reagan got the economy going again by cutting taxes. Bush inheritated a recession from Clinton, and got it going again by cutting taxes.

But Obama's plan is to RAISE TAXES and borrow trillions and spend money on pork and earmarks and go deeply in debt to end the recession. ---So far Obama's plan isn't working-----maybe it eventually will, but "Mr. Stockmarket" isn't showing a lot of confidence in Obama's plans so far.
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby ubercrap » Tue 03 Mar 2009, 22:24:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AAA', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')Don't worry so much about the rich, they will be fine.


I am not worried about the rich. I am worried about the middle class who earns over $250,000

In the major metro areas, a family that earns $250,000 is basically middle class if not lower middle class.

When a 1,400 sqft house in a decent neighborhood costs $600,000 a couple earning $250,000 definitely isn't rich or even upper middle class. They are working their tails off just to keep their kids in a safe neighborhood and in a so-so school system. Whether we like it or not that is reality for many of our cities.

I encourage many of my friends to move out of the city. It just doesn't make sense for 99% of people.


Whoa, I'm not sure where to start, but I think your perceptions have been warped by the credit/housing bubble. Even CA wasn't so out of control in the past. It sounds like you are a young, high earner, but feel cheated a bit. That might be justified to some extent, but try to keep things in perspective, and a grip on reality!
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Tue 03 Mar 2009, 22:41:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ubercrap', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AAA', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')Don't worry so much about the rich, they will be fine.


I am not worried about the rich. I am worried about the middle class who earns over $250,000

In the major metro areas, a family that earns $250,000 is basically middle class if not lower middle class.

When a 1,400 sqft house in a decent neighborhood costs $600,000 a couple earning $250,000 definitely isn't rich or even upper middle class. They are working their tails off just to keep their kids in a safe neighborhood and in a so-so school system. Whether we like it or not that is reality for many of our cities.

I encourage many of my friends to move out of the city. It just doesn't
make sense for 99% of people.


From where I sit that looks hilarious. People whining about only earning a quarter million a year! If you only knew what the rest of the world thinks about this.

In Asia a Q.mil is enough to build a pretty serous mansion on the beach or with a mountain view and independent water supply.

I read somewhere that if you have a job in a developed country on minimum wage you are in the richest 2% of the worlds population.
If you are on welfare you are still in the richest 5%.

But we choose not to look in that direction. It's more comforting to keep playing the envy game. The grass is always greener on somebody else's side of the road.

Funniest thing is how miserable people are in these rich countries.
While most of the world is envious of the west's wealth; they are not envious of the attitude that goes with it.
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby JJ » Tue 03 Mar 2009, 22:52:10

Funniest thing is how miserable people are in these rich countries.
While most of the world is envious of the west's wealth; they are not envious of the attitude that goes with it.[/quote]

which brings me to my wifes comment that Americans absolutely will not believe that anything bad could happen to them because they haven't experienced it. She says its hopeless to talk about the economy or Peak Oil because an American will not believe anything until it happens to them (and then its too late). And I always feel miserable when I have to come back to the United States after having been in the Philippines and find myself surrounded by Americans again. It is probably one of the most depressing things I have ever experienced.
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Re: Bookends of an Era?

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Tue 03 Mar 2009, 23:17:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JJ', 'F')unniest thing is how miserable people are in these rich countries.
While most of the world is envious of the west's wealth; they are not envious of the attitude that goes with it.


which brings me to my wifes comment that Americans absolutely will not believe that anything bad could happen to them because they haven't experienced it. She says its hopeless to talk about the economy or Peak Oil because an American will not believe anything until it happens to them (and then its too late). And I always feel miserable when I have to come back to the United States after having been in the Philippines and find myself surrounded by Americans again. It is probably one of the most depressing things I have ever experienced.[/quote]

Hi JJ,
same here & I'm Aussie. Don't believe the propoganda about the happy go lucky Aussie attitude. It's bullshit. Maybe 20+ years ago.
Even in the remote areas people are serious because they are required to be. There is a larrikin humor; but it's built on a backbone of pain& hard work.
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