[lawnchair]

I wanted to get a feel from the peanut gallery here on the concept of minimum wages.

I know this is not the case in much of the country, but around here (smaller-town Kansas), you'll have a line out the door of reliable, literate, workers for near-backbreaking work at $7 an hour. With houses around $30-$40k (and taxes to match... trailers even cheaper), and some quite sparse living, a couple can survive, barely, on one steady full-time minimum-wage job ($15k per year) between them.

Yet, we have companies packing up and leaving the US. Latest that caught my eye was the York Peppermint Patty/Jolly Roger candy factory moving all production to Nuevo Leon.

Why Monterrey and not Parsons, KS? Obviously, in a 'global economy', $7/hr is too much to pay a guy.

We're approaching the desperate straits out here where plenty of people would work for less than that. Move into hot-bunked dorms and company-cafeteria meals if need be. People would do it. Illegals already do, which is why people hire them. (If you paid a gringo $4/hour under the table, there's a real chance he'd rat you out... far less with the illegal.)

So, what to do with the minimum wage? Obviously, I can see the intended point. And, like many, like the idea of a backstop, rather than racing the tin-shack pooping-in-gutters third world to the absolute bottom.

But, enforcing a minimum wage here, while undercutting it by wild free-trading with nations with much lower wages, is a hypocritical kick in the teeth for millions of 90-IQ Joe's in the US who, I'm sorry, are not going to become computer programmers or "outsourcing team managers".

Further, if we actually start seeing real deflation in the US, would there be the political will to actually lower the minimum wage? This seems doubtful. The most likely course to that 'lower living standard' we seem consigned to is to try for inflation, by hook crook or printing press, and not raise the minimum wage.

[jdmartin]

I like your post. The answer of course is to not have "free trade" with countries with vastly dissimilar standards of living, unless we accept the fact of living a much reduced standard of living in the US - and I don't just mean less flat screen tvs, I mean polluted water, eliminate worker protections, etc.

If you don't do that, of course your post makes sense, but really no company is moving to Mexico or China because of minimum wages. After all, most of the companies that moved were paying their labor far in excess of the minimum wage anyway. A couple of years ago minimum wage was still $5 an hour, and companies were still leaving in droves, because you can pay a Chinese worker 50 cents an hour, pollute his water, and send his effects home in a box with a $25 gift card to Wallyworld when he gets crushed on the factory floor.

If we're not willing to accept a society like that, then we can never beat these poorer nations in price. Ever.

[Byron100]

Here's some food for thought: Canada is fixing to raise its min wage to $10.25 an hour later this year. Western Europe already has minimum wages of $10 an hour or more. Meanwhile, we poor slobs here in the US are stuck at a min wage of $6.55 an hour, set to go up to a whopping $7.15 an hour this July. Woot!

Here's what I would do to fix this low-wage problem. Make a law that automatically dissolves any corporation that does so much as move one (1) job overseas, for any reason whatsoever. You have a company in the US, you employ US workers only.

Second thing I would do is to institute an incredibly massive crackdown on the employment of illegals. Any company found employing so much as one (1) illegal alien gets dissolved immediately, never to do business again. I would then implement a total moratorium on ALL immigration into the US until such time the GDP grows by 3% or more for four or more consecutive quarters. Then I'd start letting a few people in, just a few. As soon as economic growth slows below 3%, the borders get shut again.

Trade. I would immediately scrap all trading treaties with the rest of the world and institute a system of tariffs that's designed to take the place of the Federal income tax. So, naturally, all imported goods would be very, very expensive, oil included. But no more income tax! And of course, the US would quickly become an exporting nation again, with factories on American soil producing everything from blue jeans to TVs to children's toys to high-speed locomotives for a national passenger rail network.

After doing all of this (whew!), I would increase the min wage by one dollar each year until it reaches 75% of the average national wage (which would put it in the neighborhood of $12 an hour or so). Then, for each year following, the min wage would be adjusted up or down to keep in line with 75% of the national average.

And yes, I am a fool dreamer to come up with such crazy ideas...but, oh well...LOL.

[jasonraymondson]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', '
')
And yes, I am a fool dreamer to come up with such crazy ideas...but, oh well...LOL.

[graham]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', 'H')ere's some food for thought: Canada is fixing to raise its min wage to $10.25 an hour later this year. Western Europe already has minimum wages of $10 an hour or more. Meanwhile, we poor slobs here in the US are stuck at a min wage of $6.55 an hour, set to go up to a whopping $7.15 an hour this July. Woot!

Here's what I would do to fix this low-wage problem. Make a law that automatically dissolves any corporation that does so much as move one (1) job overseas, for any reason whatsoever. You have a company in the US, you employ US workers only.

Second thing I would do is to institute an incredibly massive crackdown on the employment of illegals. Any company found employing so much as one (1) illegal alien gets dissolved immediately, never to do business again. I would then implement a total moratorium on ALL immigration into the US until such time the GDP grows by 3% or more for four or more consecutive quarters. Then I'd start letting a few people in, just a few. As soon as economic growth slows below 3%, the borders get shut again.

Trade. I would immediately scrap all trading treaties with the rest of the world and institute a system of tariffs that's designed to take the place of the Federal income tax. So, naturally, all imported goods would be very, very expensive, oil included. But no more income tax! And of course, the US would quickly become an exporting nation again, with factories on American soil producing everything from blue jeans to TVs to children's toys to high-speed locomotives for a national passenger rail network.

After doing all of this (whew!), I would increase the min wage by one dollar each year until it reaches 75% of the average national wage (which would put it in the neighborhood of $12 an hour or so). Then, for each year following, the min wage would be adjusted up or down to keep in line with 75% of the national average.

And yes, I am a fool dreamer to come up with such crazy ideas...but, oh well...LOL.

[Javaman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', 'H')ere's some food for thought: Canada is fixing to raise its min wage to $10.25 an hour later this year. Western Europe already has minimum wages of $10 an hour or more. Meanwhile, we poor slobs here in the US are stuck at a min wage of $6.55 an hour, set to go up to a whopping $7.15 an hour this July. Woot!

Here's what I would do to fix this low-wage problem. Make a law that automatically dissolves any corporation that does so much as move one (1) job overseas, for any reason whatsoever. You have a company in the US, you employ US workers only.

Second thing I would do is to institute an incredibly massive crackdown on the employment of illegals. Any company found employing so much as one (1) illegal alien gets dissolved immediately, never to do business again. I would then implement a total moratorium on ALL immigration into the US until such time the GDP grows by 3% or more for four or more consecutive quarters. Then I'd start letting a few people in, just a few. As soon as economic growth slows below 3%, the borders get shut again.

Trade. I would immediately scrap all trading treaties with the rest of the world and institute a system of tariffs that's designed to take the place of the Federal income tax. So, naturally, all imported goods would be very, very expensive, oil included. But no more income tax! And of course, the US would quickly become an exporting nation again, with factories on American soil producing everything from blue jeans to TVs to children's toys to high-speed locomotives for a national passenger rail network.

After doing all of this (whew!), I would increase the min wage by one dollar each year until it reaches 75% of the average national wage (which would put it in the neighborhood of $12 an hour or so). Then, for each year following, the min wage would be adjusted up or down to keep in line with 75% of the national average.

And yes, I am a fool dreamer to come up with such crazy ideas...but, oh well...LOL.

[graham]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Javaman', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', 'H')ere's some food for thought: Canada is fixing to raise its min wage to $10.25 an hour later this year. Western Europe already has minimum wages of $10 an hour or more. Meanwhile, we poor slobs here in the US are stuck at a min wage of $6.55 an hour, set to go up to a whopping $7.15 an hour this July. Woot!

Here's what I would do to fix this low-wage problem. Make a law that automatically dissolves any corporation that does so much as move one (1) job overseas, for any reason whatsoever. You have a company in the US, you employ US workers only.

Second thing I would do is to institute an incredibly massive crackdown on the employment of illegals. Any company found employing so much as one (1) illegal alien gets dissolved immediately, never to do business again. I would then implement a total moratorium on ALL immigration into the US until such time the GDP grows by 3% or more for four or more consecutive quarters. Then I'd start letting a few people in, just a few. As soon as economic growth slows below 3%, the borders get shut again.

Trade. I would immediately scrap all trading treaties with the rest of the world and institute a system of tariffs that's designed to take the place of the Federal income tax. So, naturally, all imported goods would be very, very expensive, oil included. But no more income tax! And of course, the US would quickly become an exporting nation again, with factories on American soil producing everything from blue jeans to TVs to children's toys to high-speed locomotives for a national passenger rail network.

After doing all of this (whew!), I would increase the min wage by one dollar each year until it reaches 75% of the average national wage (which would put it in the neighborhood of $12 an hour or so). Then, for each year following, the min wage would be adjusted up or down to keep in line with 75% of the national average.

And yes, I am a fool dreamer to come up with such crazy ideas...but, oh well...LOL.

[lawnchair]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Javaman', '
')High tariffs would raise the cost of living in the US, and result in retaliatory tariffs that would reduce foreign demand for US goods and services.

[MisterB]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')fter doing all of this (whew!), I would increase the min wage by one dollar each year until it reaches 75% of the average national wage (which would put it in the neighborhood of $12 an hour or so). Then, for each year following, the min wage would be adjusted up or down to keep in line with 75% of the national average.

[lawnchair]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MisterB', '
')How about a rule where the highest paid employee in a company could earn a maximum of X times the lowest paid.

[bikerguy]

I can see the future, a four year degree to make $10/Hr. The future is so bright I have to wear shades.

[Byron100]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bikerguy', 'I') can see the future, a four year degree to make $10/Hr. The future is so bright I have to wear shades.

[Tyler_JC]

1. What makes you think that the rest of the world would still allow American exports into their country if we closed off our markets to imports?

We tried the beggar thy neighbor approach before. It lead to a Great Depression. Find me a modern autarky that is thriving and I'll show you my unicorn. Cutting yourself off from the world has historically been one of the ways that great powers destroy themselves.

Think about the Detroit automakers. Decades of competition free growth allowed them to become bloated and inefficient. When Japan showed up in the 1970s with cheaper and more efficient smaller cars, Detroit was unable to cope. They just couldn't innovate or compete. They were trapped in the 1950s mindset of bigger=better. Would America have been better off without Japanese imports? Well, would you have been better off driving a Datsun or a Chevy during the 1970s oil shocks?

2. What happens if Wal*Mart shelves empty out and there is nothing to replace them because Americans can't afford to buy the consumer products that they themselves would produce?

There are lots of products we simply cannot produce in the United States at prices that would allow American consumers to afford them. Posters have already commented that cheap tshirts put American workers out of a job because they can't compete with 50 cent/hour workers.

OK, so what would the tshirt cost with American labor? Would anyone be able to afford them? And if so, could they buy as many?

How many Americans would simply be cut out of the tshirt market rather than pay $30 for a "Made In America" tag.

You can't just turn back the clock.

[lawnchair]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', '
')To tell you the truth, there just aren't enough jobs out there in proportion to the population, even at the lower levels of income. I think the best policy can be be pursued right now is to encourage those who don't need to work to stay at home. We need more one-income families instead of 2-incomers.

[lawnchair]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')We tried the beggar thy neighbor approach before. It lead to a Great Depression.

[Byron100]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')here are lots of products we simply cannot produce in the United States at prices that would allow American consumers to afford them. Posters have already commented that cheap tshirts put American workers out of a job because they can't compete with 50 cent/hour workers.

OK, so what would the tshirt cost with American labor? Would anyone be able to afford them? And if so, could they buy as many?

How many Americans would simply be cut out of the tshirt market rather than pay $30 for a "Made In America" tag.

You can't just turn back the clock.

[Javaman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lawnchair', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Javaman', '
')High tariffs would raise the cost of living in the US, and result in retaliatory tariffs that would reduce foreign demand for US goods and services.

[dorlomin]

I think that the loss of earning power in the manufacturing industries is the indirect cause of our current malaise. We covered it up with borrowing and service sector jobs. The people who took the manufacturing jobs in the global south have not the purchasing power to replace the factory workers in the west who lost their jobs.

It is controversial but I reckon the best way out of this catastrophe is for international minimum wages in certain key industries such as car manufacturing, hard rock mining, metal smelting and so on. This will be deeply unpopular with low cost markets as it will undermine there competitiveness and they will not want too loose the jobs, but I think they jobs lost can be replaced with service sector and manufacturing demand of the workers who remain but with good incomes. The jobs will also flow back west as the western high technology high wage factories become more competitive.

It will probably take a couple of years of pain before people are willing to listen to this kind of idea.

[Novus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdmartin', 'I') like your post. The answer of course is to not have "free trade" with countries with vastly dissimilar standards of living, unless we accept the fact of living a much reduced standard of living in the US - and I don't just mean less flat screen tvs, I mean polluted water, eliminate worker protections, etc.