Peak Oil
Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

"We need leaders"

Discussions related to the physiological and psychological effects of peak oil on our members and future generations.
Post a reply

Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 15 Feb 2009, 19:13:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bas', 'w')e don't so much need leaders as we need the world's leaders to come together and come to a concensus as what has to happen to solve things like depletion of just about everything and environmental problems.



We may "need" that to happen, but is it likely? This is needing someone else, in this case many someone elses over whom we have little or no influence, to do something we want them to do. If they do not do it, are we helpless, in your opinion?
Ludi
 
Top

Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby Nefarious » Sun 15 Feb 2009, 19:15:54

We don't need leaders. We need a mass change of thinking of the populace. You can not lead people where they do not wish to go. Once you have a change of thinking in the masses then you need a leader to put those changes in place.
'By the pricking of my thumbs,Something Wicked This Way Comes."
User avatar
Nefarious
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 495
Joined: Fri 31 Oct 2008, 03:00:00
Location: The Deep South
Top

Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 15 Feb 2009, 19:20:16

Why if everyone has changed their thinking, do they need a leader to put those changes in place? Couldn't the people with the changed thinking put the changes in place? Why the middleman, I guess is what I'm asking.

How do you get a mass change in thinking, in your opinion?
Ludi
 
Top

Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 15 Feb 2009, 19:25:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')How do you get a mass change in thinking, in your opinion?


Two weeks without any food in the supermarkets should do it. JM.02 :roll:
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 14897
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby Quinny » Sun 15 Feb 2009, 19:28:31

Gandhi?
Live, Love, Learn, Leave Legacy.....oh and have a Laugh while you're doing it!
User avatar
Quinny
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3337
Joined: Thu 03 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby Nefarious » Sun 15 Feb 2009, 19:31:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'W')hy if everyone has changed their thinking, do they need a leader to put those changes in place? Couldn't the people with the changed thinking put the changes in place? Why the middleman, I guess is what I'm asking.


Do I need to explain representative government to you?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ow do you get a mass change in thinking, in your opinion?


MSM it's the only way. You have to use their propaganda tools that they have in place.
'By the pricking of my thumbs,Something Wicked This Way Comes."
User avatar
Nefarious
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 495
Joined: Fri 31 Oct 2008, 03:00:00
Location: The Deep South
Top

Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby Bas » Sun 15 Feb 2009, 19:33:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bas', 'w')e don't so much need leaders as we need the world's leaders to come together and come to a concensus as what has to happen to solve things like depletion of just about everything and environmental problems.



We may "need" that to happen, but is it likely? This is needing someone else, in this case many someone elses over whom we have little or no influence, to do something we want them to do. If they do not do it, are we helpless, in your opinion?


well, like I said I think the situation has to worsen before it gets better, the situation has to be such in which it will be undeniable that we have to work together and make due with less or perish, not unlike the current situation; maybe this crisis will turn out to be a catalyst for leaders to come together. And it's not unheard of, look at Europe.

Still the biggest obstacle is the rich world giving up wealth. We will only do that when we're outcompeted for resources, which will happen at some point.
Bas
 
Top

Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 15 Feb 2009, 19:42:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nefarious', '
')
Do I need to explain representative government to you?



So you feel top-down solutions are the best, or maybe, the only way to change society?
Ludi
 
Top

Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby Nefarious » Sun 15 Feb 2009, 20:08:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nefarious', '
')
Do I need to explain representative government to you?



So you feel top-down solutions are the best, or maybe, the only way to change society?


Let me try and explain.

If no one believed in global warming but yet your elected official did and he tried to pass laws that would cost lots of money to fight global warming. He wouldn't be in office long.
If everyone believed in global warming but your elected official didn't and he passed laws that encouraged greater fossil fuel burning. He wouldn't be in office long.

Right now the great majority doesn't believe in overpopulation and resource depletion.They want their lives to be grand and filled with lots of materialistic things. They don't want to have to reduce. They want leadership that will get them what they want. They want leadership to makes things better for them. They will not tolerate leadership that makes their living standards go down.
So if your leader goes against the grain so to speak he won't be in office long.

You can't lead people where they don't want to go.

I'm more of a bottom up than a top down person. The real kicker is that the top tells the bottom what to think and the bottom tells the top it better be able to deliver it.
'By the pricking of my thumbs,Something Wicked This Way Comes."
User avatar
Nefarious
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 495
Joined: Fri 31 Oct 2008, 03:00:00
Location: The Deep South
Top

Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 15 Feb 2009, 20:38:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nefarious', '
')I'm more of a bottom up than a top down person. The real kicker is that the top tells the bottom what to think and the bottom tells the top it better be able to deliver it.



Do you see any solution to this, or do you feel it is an unsolvable problem? You mentioned changing peoples' minds by the mainstream media, but, do you see a way of actually doing it with a bottom-up approach?
Ludi
 
Top

Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby Nefarious » Sun 15 Feb 2009, 21:34:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nefarious', '
')I'm more of a bottom up than a top down person. The real kicker is that the top tells the bottom what to think and the bottom tells the top it better be able to deliver it.



Do you see any solution to this, or do you feel it is an unsolvable problem? You mentioned changing peoples' minds by the mainstream media, but, do you see a way of actually doing it with a bottom-up approach?


No solution what so ever. You won't see resource depletion on MSM because their is no market for it. Let's use global warming again as an example. At first it was fringe lunatics but with ever more coverage of it on it slowly caught on and changed a lot of peoples minds due to the regurgitating of the information over and over again (type of propaganda). Why? Because global warming opened up a whole new market to make money. Windmills,solar power, drive an efficient car, buy green. You can feel good in consuming while also helping the planet. Global warming is good because it encouraged growth in a new sector of business.

Resource depletion is no growth anywhere it is contraction. How can you market this? You can't. Save what you can. Don't buy needlessly, reuse what you can, pass items down to others, make every little bit stretch, make it last. This is essentially having a salesman tell you not to buy his product. No company will do this and since companies pretty much own the MSM you will never see resource depletion take hold. It will be used to keep it on the lunatic fringe. So they might be able to ride that profit train for all it's worth no sense in bringing it to a close early. Screw the people think of the profit.

Since people get their daily programing from the MSM and that programing is about keeping the status quo. I see no hope for resource depletion coming out and taking hold in peoples minds.
'By the pricking of my thumbs,Something Wicked This Way Comes."
User avatar
Nefarious
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 495
Joined: Fri 31 Oct 2008, 03:00:00
Location: The Deep South
Top

Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 15 Feb 2009, 21:44:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nefarious', '
') No solution what so ever.



Realistically, I tend to agree with you. There's no way to capture the MSM without insane piles of money. Those who own insane piles of money are invested in the status quo and in general have no desire to see it change, or to change it themselves. Word of mouth or internet style mind-changing is agonizingly slow, and even those of us who realize our way of life is going extinct have a difficult time changing to a different way. The best we can do, I think, is to share ideas as much as we can - if we reach a few people, that is a huge success. And try to be the change we want to see, as much as we are able. Little steps. It may not be enough (probably not - I'm not optimistic about my own chances, for instance), but at least it is something. :(
Ludi
 
Top

Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby mos6507 » Sun 15 Feb 2009, 23:04:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nefarious', '
')No solution what so ever. You won't see resource depletion on MSM because their is no market for it.


Resource depletion has ALREADY been on the MSM. Most of it produced in the UK (Monbiot interview with Fatih Birol) or Australia (Incredible Journey of Crude, which was shown on the History Channel).

Considering the fact that there are still plenty of global warming deniers, don't think that mainstream press coverage is a panacea. It's not. Cultural inertia is strong. Even greenies may not understand how grave our situation is and that driving a prius ain't gonna cut it.
mos6507
 
Top

Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby Nefarious » Mon 16 Feb 2009, 01:18:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nefarious', '
')No solution what so ever. You won't see resource depletion on MSM because their is no market for it.


Resource depletion has ALREADY been on the MSM. Most of it produced in the UK (Monbiot interview with Fatih Birol) or Australia (Incredible Journey of Crude, which was shown on the History Channel).

Considering the fact that there are still plenty of global warming deniers, don't think that mainstream press coverage is a panacea. It's not. Cultural inertia is strong. Even greenies may not understand how grave our situation is and that driving a prius ain't gonna cut it.


I hope you are being sarcastic there mos,but I doubt it. I can't comment on other countries just the one I live in. You have to be kidding me, The History channel? WOW!! So many j6p love the History channel, most Americans couldn't point to China on a map but they watch the History channel. Riiight! I'm talking about NBC,CBS,ABC nightly news. I'm talking about when they do cover peak oil, they don't end the report with the CEO of a hydrogen fuel cell company saying it's going to be ok "we will have hydrogen". When after they state the oil is running out they don't switch to a plant manager for an oil shale company telling everyone we have more reserves than Saudi Arabia. "We can fuel the world" When they actually do some real investigating journalism and dig deep and show how these so called saviors are nothing but wishful thinking. Then I will say it has hit MSM in an effort to wake people up. Until then it is to quell the fears that might be growing. The problem is solved go back to the status quo and consume and you will be happy.

Yes alot of greenies don't understand the true situation. They are told through the MSM buy a prius to help the planet.Consume green and you will do your part to save the world, but it is always consume,consume,consume. Buy our product it doesn't harm the environment. People are being brainwashed and don't even know it. They think they are helping but they aren't, just another successful advertising campaign making people feel good about a purchase. They take what the MSM tells them at face value and leave it at that. They don't know how to dig and do research and find information for themselves to come their own conclusions.
'By the pricking of my thumbs,Something Wicked This Way Comes."
User avatar
Nefarious
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 495
Joined: Fri 31 Oct 2008, 03:00:00
Location: The Deep South
Top

Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby mos6507 » Mon 16 Feb 2009, 04:52:45

Here's your MSM coverage from the last year and a half
mos6507
 
Top

Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby uNkNowN ElEmEnt » Mon 16 Feb 2009, 05:23:59

I think it goes a lot deeper and to a primal level. People when scaird need "daddy" to come fix their problem and kiss their boo-boos. Same reason many people join a church, so they don't have to think for themselves and they can trust that there is someone/thing greater/bigger than them working on the issue or towards a solution.

That way they can be good little pions doing their part by doing as they are told and that makes them feel safer in their own little worlds by not having to see and deal with the reality of what is going on in the big scairy world.
User avatar
uNkNowN ElEmEnt
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 2587
Joined: Sat 04 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: perpetual state of exhaustion
Top

Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby Ayoob » Mon 16 Feb 2009, 05:26:09

I don't need a leader. I'm not waiting for anything, I'm busy building what I want to have next year.
User avatar
Ayoob
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 1520
Joined: Thu 15 Jul 2004, 03:00:00
Top

Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 16 Feb 2009, 10:35:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('uNkNowN ElEmEnt', 'I') think it goes a lot deeper and to a primal level. People when scaird need "daddy" to come fix their problem and kiss their boo-boos. Same reason many people join a church, so they don't have to think for themselves and they can trust that there is someone/thing greater/bigger than them working on the issue or towards a solution.

That way they can be good little pions doing their part by doing as they are told and that makes them feel safer in their own little worlds by not having to see and deal with the reality of what is going on in the big scairy world.



I agree, that seems to be a lot of what's going on. Is it intrinsic to civilized culture, do you think, or is it a primate response - wanting the Big Ape to protect us?
Ludi
 
Top

Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby HeckuvaJob » Mon 16 Feb 2009, 12:56:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'D')o you have any examples of wise and benevolent government/leaders?

1. Dennis Kucinich
2. Bernie Sanders

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'H')ow do you get a mass change in thinking, in your opinion?

It's easy: you need a well informed and engaged citizenry (just don't ask me how).

If it seems like things are in disarray, everyone's confused, nobody knows what's going on or what to do... don't assume it's an accident. The system thrives on dysfunction. The last thing they want is an educated public with a common voice.

The oil execs didn't set out to disprove climate change, they only needed to create doubt. Under a smoke screen of contentious, hot button issues, the real work of government is done: the revolving door of corporate board rooms and public office.
User avatar
HeckuvaJob
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 326
Joined: Sat 09 Aug 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Pittsburgh
Top

Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby POAlex » Thu 19 Feb 2009, 22:15:52

"It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man." (Psalm 118:8)

Just my two cents.

Alex
User avatar
POAlex
Wood
Wood
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue 10 Jul 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Canada
Top
PreviousNext
Post a reply

Return to Medical Issues Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest



cron