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The Singularity University

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby rsch20 » Sun 08 Feb 2009, 21:21:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', '
')permaculture is a puzzle piece, not the entire solution. .



100% agree.

I don't recall EVER saying permaculture was the only solution.


no, but you belittle the idea of Accelerating Tech. which is a larger puzzle piece.
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 08 Feb 2009, 21:21:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', '
')(p.s. I just noticed that you stated it's not new tech, and then followed that directly with the phrase 'some new innovations')

/facepalm



If that makes you facepalm, it's no wonder you and I don't communicate. I have a pathetic ability with words, I admit it.


"Permaculture as a design system contains nothing new. It arranges what was always there in a different way, so that it works to conserve energy or generate more energy than it consumes. What is novel, and often overlooked, is that any system of total commonsense design for human communities is revolutionary." - Bill Mollison
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 08 Feb 2009, 21:22:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', '
')
no, but you belittle the idea of Accelerating Tech. which is a larger puzzle piece.



I belittle a lot of things, so what?

I even belittle things I myself believe in! :)

Plenty of folks here belittle Permaculture, maybe me belittling other people's sacred cows just evens things out a tad.
Last edited by Ludi on Sun 08 Feb 2009, 21:25:48, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 08 Feb 2009, 21:22:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('outcast', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')here's nothing wrong with MIT except they keep trying to make a fridge that tells people when to buy milk. :)




In other words because they keep researching science and inventing new things?



No, because I think that particular project is silly. :)
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby outcast » Sun 08 Feb 2009, 21:27:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')o, because I think that particular project is silly. :)



They do other stuff too, so why were you bashing them earlier?
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 08 Feb 2009, 21:28:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('outcast', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')o, because I think that particular project is silly. :)



They do other stuff too, so why were you bashing them earlier?



Because I felt like it. :)

Why is my opinion of MIT important to you?
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby rsch20 » Sun 08 Feb 2009, 21:31:04

your quote contains the words 'novel' and 'revolutionary', reinforcing my point that it IS new, though composed of existing tech.

a lot of innovations and new technologies happen that way...

basically, I think we agree, it is old tech, but a new idea. which qualifies it as 'new technology' as counter-intuitive as that is.


-----------------------------------

blah post storm we are going too fast over each other heh, in response to your new post, silly projects still contribute. Gaming for instance is looked down upon by many people but is largely responsible for driving forward computer development.

After all we've had computers good enough to do word processing and business/home stuff for a while now. Gamers are the ones that buy the 'bleeding edge' equipment.
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 08 Feb 2009, 21:34:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', 'y')our quote contains the words 'novel' and 'revolutionary', reinforcing my point that it IS new, though composed of existing tech.

a lot of innovations and new technologies happen that way...

basically, I think we agree, it is old tech, but a new idea. which qualifies it as 'new technology' as counter-intuitive as that is.


-----------------------------------

blah post storm we are going too fast over each other heh, in response to your new post, silly projects still contribute. Gaming for instance is looked down upon by many people but is largely responsible for driving forward computer development.

After all we've had computers good enough to do word processing and business/home stuff for a while now. Gamers are the ones that buy the 'bleeding edge' equipment.




I'm glad we agree. Maybe you can refrain from referring to me "blathering" in the future. I don't think that's conducive to communication.

Yes, silly projects are useful too. I spend nearly 100% of my time doing silly things. But I don't mind calling them silly. Sometimes I mind if someone else calls them silly. If you're working on the MIT Smart Fridge, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by calling it silly. I didn't know you're at MIT. :)
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby rsch20 » Sun 08 Feb 2009, 21:36:10

you just posted that you enjoy belittling ideas and institutions but are concerned about getting some back?

seems the only appropriate response to me, after our original thread it was the method I settled on to deal with you.
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 08 Feb 2009, 21:39:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', 'y')ou just posted that you enjoy belittling ideas and institutions but are concerned about getting some back?

seems the only appropriate response to me, after our original thread it was the method I settled on to deal with you.



Yeah, I tend to be overly sensitive, and have trouble taking it when I dish it out. :) I'm trying to improve.
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby outcast » Sun 08 Feb 2009, 21:43:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', 'y')ou just posted that you enjoy belittling ideas and institutions but are concerned about getting some back?

seems the only appropriate response to me, after our original thread it was the method I settled on to deal with you.



Yeah, I tend to be overly sensitive, and have trouble taking it when I dish it out. :) I'm trying to improve.



But isn't that really just another form of trolling? I really am not seeing much, if any substance to your belittling, other than neo-luddite wanking.
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 08 Feb 2009, 21:45:38

Rsch, do you think belittling is an effective way to communicate, since it is your preferred method of "dealing" with me? What would you rather be able to do with me, to "deal" with me? Or what would you rather I be saying, that you wouldn't have to "deal" with me but could instead communicate with me?
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 08 Feb 2009, 21:46:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('outcast', '
')But isn't that really just another form of trolling? I really am not seeing much, if any substance to your belittling, other than neo-luddite wanking.



Yes, I was trolling in this thread. There's a thread devoted to my trolling behavior already.
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 08 Feb 2009, 21:53:23

I have, I think, deleted my off-topic interruptions.

I'm sorry. Embarrassed and ashamed of my behavior, which I will try harder to control.

Thanks.
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby rsch20 » Sun 08 Feb 2009, 21:57:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'R')sch, do you think belittling is an effective way to communicate, since it is your preferred method of "dealing" with me? What would you rather be able to do with me, to "deal" with me? Or what would you rather I be saying, that you wouldn't have to "deal" with me but could instead communicate with me?


I'm going to go ahead and use outcasts term 'trolling'. when you post on a singularity thread it is always as a laughing skeptic, you contribute nothing to the discussion other than permaculture and go off on self-important tangents (like this one).

You present no facts or argument, but simply make fun of the idea. in order for there to be communication between us you need to be communicating SOMETHING that is on-topic.

Given that you won't discuss the topic seriously, the option left to me, is to deal with you as a troll. belittle you, don't engage your tangents (like this one) and try to keep your disruption of the topic to a minimum.

[edit]apology accepted and thank you.
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 08 Feb 2009, 21:59:57

Thank you. I know it is a bad behavior, and I'm trying to stop it.
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 08 Feb 2009, 22:01:50

Moderators, can you please move the off-topic to HOF?

Thanks.
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby rsch20 » Sun 08 Feb 2009, 22:32:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Windmills', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'P')lease tell me federal tax dollars are not funding this university on the NASA campus.

As for the "singularity.." as far as it relates to computing (that is, the point at which artificial intelligence becomes self-aware), it is an inevitability. Moore's Law on processing power has held up for what? 30, 40, 50 years now?


I don't know see how curve-fitting a trend makes the leap to inevitability. How many thousands of trends lay in wrecked heaps by the roadside of history, trends that lasted more than just a mere few decades, trends that lasted for centuries and longer. People thought those much longer trends were inevitabilities, too. There has to be a much firmer arguement for this than simply, "it is, so it will always be." Isn't that one of the first attacks against peak oil, too? "We've always had oil, so we always will." I'm sure there's a nice word from a logic studies class that defines and refutes how faulty this line of thinking is.


To bring the discussion back around, I'd like to address this post.

This is a solid point, but it does not invalidate the theory, and the line of thinking is not faulty.

Your point would have been stronger still if you point out that accelerating technology is an exponential curve rather than a bell curve like peak oil.

Exponential curves pretty much always level off, the earlier scares regarding population explosions were based on an exponential curve in human reproduction, that soon levelled off and we have since found that people in developed countries have less children etc etc etc.

Normally, this is a crushing argument to any theory based on an exponential curve, applied to the Singularity you are talking about things like entire industries created and replaced in hours/minutes/seconds. ridiculous right?

The difference here is recursive self-improvement, and subjective time.

The argument goes, that once an AI is created, it will be able to design another AI that is better than itself, and so on. resulting in large leaps of improvement entirely out of our control.

Additionally, you may be familiar with 'clock speed' on computers? the speed of the processor, early super-computers took a long time to 'crunch' calculations that a desktop computer could do in an hour today. as processors get faster, they literally 'experience' the world faster. Your brain is a computer, and the rate that you perceive time going by is directly related to how fast your brain is running. If you had a faster brain, and were able to think twice as fast as you do now, you would literally experience time as going by slower. So the second part of the argument that addresses the exponential curve, is that the curve can remain exponential because each new generation will be experiencing the world and taking the next step faster, even though the same amount of 'thought' planning etc are put into it.

on a tangent of that argument it's also probably possible to create a computer simulation that runs infinitely (subjectively) even in a finite universe.

and as I said a bit ago, if the curve does level off, we are boned (and if it doesn't 'we' as in humans, are still possibly boned)

it's entirely possible that the curve will level off, it's also entirely possible (though unlikely) that oil will be smoothly replaced, that doesn't make Peak Oil uninteresting to consider or invalid.
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby Carlhole » Mon 09 Feb 2009, 08:55:45

Cognitive Computing Project Aims to Reverse-Engineer the Mind

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wired', 'I')magine a computer that can process text, video and audio in an instant, solve problems on the fly, and do it all while consuming just 10 watts of power.

It would be the ultimate computing machine if it were built with silicon instead of human nerve cells.

Compare that to current computers, which require extensive, custom programming for each application, consume hundreds of watts in power, and are still not fast enough. So it's no surprise that some computer scientists want to go back to the drawing board and try building computers that more closely emulate nature.

"The plan is to engineer the mind by reverse-engineering the brain," says Dharmendra Modha, manager of the cognitive computing project at IBM Almaden Research Center.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')ne of the main challenges to building this system in hardware, explains Boahen, is that each neuron connects to others through 8,000 synapses. It takes about 20 transistors to implement a synapse, so building the silicon equivalent of 220 trillion synapses is a tall order, indeed.

"You end up with a technology where the cost is very unfavorable," says Boahen. "That's why we have to use nanotech to implement synapses in a way that will make them much smaller and more cost-effective."

Boahen and his team are trying to create a device smaller than a single transistor that can do the job of 20 transistors. "We are essentially inventing a new device," he says.


The development of machine-consciousness/true AI has got one VERY BIG THING going for it: it's already been done. So we know it's totally possible.

This makes Cognitive Computing irresistible to computer scientists. And the possibilities of melding aspects of human consciousness with the capabilities of supercomputers are simply drop-dead gobsmacking in enormity. The whole thing may be dauntingly complex, but with the array of technologies that have been developed recently which enable a deeper understanding of the workings of the human brain -- in conjunction with technologies such as HP's memresistor pointing towards development of artificial synapses -- you can rest assured that the trajectory towards REAL artificial intelligence will be steep and stunning in the years ahead.

Read the comments section of the Wired article.
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby Narz » Mon 09 Feb 2009, 14:24:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', 'I') will say that I remember having this conversation with ludi a few years back and it went exactly the same, blathering about permaculture without even realizing that that itself is a new 'technology'.


But it isn't a "new technology." It's a technology, but not new. It's made up of existing techniques, with some innovations.

That's what all "new technology" is. Were you intending to be ironic?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'T')here's nothing wrong with MIT except they keep trying to make a fridge that tells people when to buy milk. :)

Hmm, so some of their projects appear frivolous to you. God forbid! You don't have any frivolous hobbies or projects?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'N')arz, I'm not a Luddite. That you think I am shows how little you've actually noticed of what I've posted. I have posted repeatedly that I am not a Luddite. I think technology is part of being human. Also part of being human is being responsible for our choices and making appropriate ones (I like to hope).

I step out of arguments when I get too emotionally involved in them. I think that's more useful and helpful than typing obscenities in allcaps.

What's Ludi stand for then? Also, there's a third option (try to remain calm & poised or let your emotions channel your energy).

You seem to be against technology you deem as unsustainable or "unnatural" (plastic, metal stuff I guess you'd call it) and to save a major disdain for people who you deem are stuck in the old paradigm (making a "smart fridge" for example).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'P')lease if you have personal criticism of me, take it to the Hall Of Flames where it belongs.
I like sticking with one thread but I already have expressed myself there.

Don't get me wrong Ludi, I like you & I think you have a good heart, I just think you alienate a lot of intelligent people by being so judgmental over any use of technology you deem frivolous.

I agree that "fridge telling you your milk is sour" is a bit disempowering. Personally I don't even like speed-dial, it erordes memory. However, I'll be damned if I give up my computer. Computers are fucking awesome (without them we wouldn't be talking) & I don't think (contrary to what the Roccman's of the world wish for) they're going anywhere, anytime soon. And praise Allah for that, the Internet is the greatest force for good in the world right now. Like I said before, without it, 95%+ percent of people who are aware of permaculture wouldn't be. Perhaps 99%+ of peak oil aware people wouldn't be. Even (ironically) the neo-primitivist movement would be nothing without the Internet. :lol:
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