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Inequality (US Vs. Europe)

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Re: Inequality (US Vs. Europe)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 12:17:19

And who put the money up to start the co-op ghost? If it was the employees then they were rich in the first place if they could fund a start up biz.

You're right bas: simple models don't ever work.
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Re: Inequality (US Vs. Europe)

Unread postby cube » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 15:07:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bas', 'I') have a proposition:

what if you had a society of 100 people.

99 of these people would have 1 wealth and the 1 would have 200 wealth, the total wealth would be 299.

Now what if through wealth redistribution these 99 people would have 2 wealth and the 1 would have "only" 20? The total wealth would be 218, so the total wealth would be less.

What system would you prefer?

That's what the French believe in, seriously.
They believe it is better to have an egalitarian society even if it means having less total wealth.
They are world famous or infamous for their government "income redistribution" programs.
The number of nations on this planet that strive for egalitarianism more fiercely than the French is a VERY short list...Denmark and Sweden perhaps?
Basically the French do NOT believe in "American capitalism" (George Soros has $10Billion in networth, J6P has $10,000)
They are the polar opposite.

Q?
Why are Americans better off than the French?
According to your theory it should be the opposite But it is NOT.
explain why?
But it's not just the USA, you can also add: Singapore, Hong Kong, Austria, Switzerland, Japan to that list also
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Re: Inequality (US Vs. Europe)

Unread postby Jester » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 18:30:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bas', 'I') have a proposition:

what if you had a society of 100 people.

99 of these people would have 1 wealth and the 1 would have 200 wealth, the total wealth would be 299.

Now what if through wealth redistribution these 99 people would have 2 wealth and the 1 would have "only" 20? The total wealth would be 218, so the total wealth would be less.

What system would you prefer?

That's what the French believe in, seriously.
They believe it is better to have an egalitarian society even if it means having less total wealth.
They are world famous or infamous for their government "income redistribution" programs.
The number of nations on this planet that strive for egalitarianism more fiercely than the French is a VERY short list...Denmark and Sweden perhaps?
Basically the French do NOT believe in "American capitalism" (George Soros has $10Billion in networth, J6P has $10,000)
They are the polar opposite.

Q?
Why are Americans better off than the French?
According to your theory it should be the opposite But it is NOT.
explain why?
But it's not just the USA, you can also add: Singapore, Hong Kong, Austria, Switzerland, Japan to that list also


I suppose this depends on the big picture view of "better off". Does being in debt beyond ones means, indicate "better"? Borrowing to support a lifestyle they can't afford isn't better, is it? Isn't it 40-50% of Americans that spend more than they earn each year? Is digging themselves into a whole, deeper every year, the better way?
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Re: Inequality (US Vs. Europe)

Unread postby cube » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 19:21:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')as wrote:
I have a proposition:

what if you had a society of 100 people.

99 of these people would have 1 wealth and the 1 would have 200 wealth, the total wealth would be 299.

Now what if through wealth redistribution these 99 people would have 2 wealth and the 1 would have "only" 20? The total wealth would be 218, so the total wealth would be less.

What system would you prefer?

//
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jester', '.')..

I suppose this depends on the big picture view of "better off". Does being in debt beyond ones means, indicate "better"? Borrowing to support a lifestyle they can't afford isn't better, is it? Isn't it 40-50% of Americans that spend more than they earn each year? Is digging themselves into a whole, deeper every year, the better way?
*sigh you just don't want to leave me alone do you?*

If you insist on replying to my post then why don't you answer the question?
If income redistribution is so great then how come the average French person doesn't make $80,000 a year while an American makes $40,000 hmmm?
ANSWER THE QUESTION
never mind --> you do not dare to open your mouth because you know what the answer is.
Income redistribution looks good on paper but it doesn't work in reality.
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Re: Inequality (US Vs. Europe)

Unread postby Byron100 » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 19:23:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bas', 'I') have a proposition:

what if you had a society of 100 people.

99 of these people would have 1 wealth and the 1 would have 200 wealth, the total wealth would be 299.

Now what if through wealth redistribution these 99 people would have 2 wealth and the 1 would have "only" 20? The total wealth would be 218, so the total wealth would be less.

What system would you prefer?

That's what the French believe in, seriously.
They believe it is better to have an egalitarian society even if it means having less total wealth.
They are world famous or infamous for their government "income redistribution" programs.
The number of nations on this planet that strive for egalitarianism more fiercely than the French is a VERY short list...Denmark and Sweden perhaps?
Basically the French do NOT believe in "American capitalism" (George Soros has $10Billion in networth, J6P has $10,000)
They are the polar opposite.

Q?
Why are Americans better off than the French?
According to your theory it should be the opposite But it is NOT.
explain why?
But it's not just the USA, you can also add: Singapore, Hong Kong, Austria, Switzerland, Japan to that list also


That's where you lose me, as I certainly do not consider Americans better off than the French, not by a long shot. If I had the chance to "redo" my life over again, and had the choice to be born in any country I desired in my birth year of 1966, I'd put France right there at the top. You just cannot measure a country's well-being by virtue of GDP alone, as that's just an arbitrary unit of measurement representing a country's total economic output. America may very well have the highest per capita GDP in the world, but what good does it do for J6P if the vast majority of the wealth is tied up in the top few percent of the population?

In France, the way they do it, is to provide the highest standard of living for the greatest number of people. Those that earn the most money pay the most tax, which goes to provide universal health care, free university education, a minimum standard of living for everyone, not to mention maintaining that pristine countryside that's the envy of the developed world. I don't know about you folks, but I'd gladly accept a 25% haircut in GDP for all of those "happy living" benefits.

I know it's hard for many US citizens to accept this, but the US really isn't the best place in the world to live, in so many different ways. Some of you folk who think that the US really is the No 1 place to live, I invite you to take a few moments to think about how well-off you are compared to the rest of the 300 million or so of your fellow citizens.

Just saying'... :wink:
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Re: Inequality (US Vs. Europe)

Unread postby cube » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 23:38:41

*public announcement- interruption*

I have taken all people off my ignore list. --> you have been pardoned for your stupidity which is how you got on that list to begin with
Furthermore I will abandon my account in several weeks.
I've been on this site since 2005 and well it's starting to get old.

*continue on*

// add on
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', 'I')f I had the chance to "redo" my life over again, and had the choice to be born in any country I desired in my birth year of 1966, I'd put [s]France[/s] ---> the nation of Cubestan right there at the top.
There fixed that for you. :)
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Re: US has larger trade deficit than all other nations combi

Unread postby VMarcHart » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 02:36:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nobodypanic', 'i') personally look forward to the day the rich are dragged kicking and screaming down the street to answer for their crimes against the people.
I'm far from being rich, so I don't speak as one, but if you had become rich from honest hardwork, or an intellectual property --ie, you wrote a book--, or dumb luck --ie, you won the lottery--, it would be unfair to see you being dragged kicking and screaming down the street.
On 9/29/08, cube wrote: "The Dow will drop to 4,000 within 2 years". The current tally is 239 bold predictions, 9 right, 96 wrong, 134 open. If you've heard here, it's probably wrong.
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Unread postby Tyler_JC » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 03:01:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nobodypanic', 'i') personally look forward to the day the rich are dragged kicking and screaming down the street to answer for their crimes against the people.


That quote kind of speaks for itself, eh?
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Re: Inequality (US Vs. Europe)

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 03:24:56

<i>i personally look forward to the day the rich are dragged kicking and screaming down the street to answer for their crimes against the people.</i>

Statements such as this have been proliferating like wildfire on the internet. This could be the start of something.
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The level of injustice and wrong you endure is directly determined by how much you quietly submit to. Even to the point of extinction.
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Re: Inequality (US Vs. Europe)

Unread postby Nickel » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 08:44:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ROCKMAN', 'B')as -- a question about your model: didn't the 99 get there 1 wealth by being paid by the 1 with the 200 wealth? After all, the 200 wealth individual was the only one with resources to generate the wealth distributed to the 99. If the 1 has her wealth reduced to 20 she'll probably have to lay off, say, 90 of the others. They could get by for a couple of years with their newly acquired 2 wealths but after that they would have 0 wealth for the rest of their lives, no?


But the guy with 200 only got it because he, or an ancestor, basically "taxed" the wealth of the workers. Ultimately, he did not create it, he absconded with it. They did 3 wealths of work, and got to keep 1. Why do conservatives load their pants, jumping around and screaming when a government does this, but feel the urge to tweak their nipples at the thought of private individuals and corporations doing the same? Either way you look at it, it's a form of taxation on human labour and industry. At best, it's excused by providing the resources to enable labour to be done (infrastructure, corporate or public); a worst, a form of theft.

I'd also like to know what happens to the other, what, 81 wealths in Bas's model that suddenly vanish from the equation. He allows the working 99 to keep twice the amount of wealth that they create in his model, true, but arbitrarily caps the gains of the one to "20", and never explains what happens to the other 81. Why not a society where the 99 get 2.82 wealths, and the rich guy gets 20? Or the 81 go into a common account from which is drawn wealth used for the public good? I think it's a mistake for Bas to throw this bone to the conservatives in the first place because it concedes to them an arguing point that isn't even substantiated (as in Rockman's typical board room boogyman tactic of suddenly threatening to "lay off" 90 people as a result). Nevertheless...

I'm curious as to why the idea that that vast majority of the people living twice as well as they might (while still passing along a substantial amount of all they create to just one person) equates to "less" wealth, simply because the person setting up the model takes it on a whim to remove some amount of production from the balance sheet. How does having 99% of humanity living in relative poverty -- in the first instance, as opposed to the second -- while 1% of humanity hoards 2/3 of the society's wealth -- benefit the society as a whole, even if conservatives are correct in assuming that bottom line is better?

Let's look at it another way. Bas's model is even more illustrative if you look at concrete numbers rather than the insubstantial "wealths". The average person needs about 2000 calories a day. So let's imagine that instead of "wealths", our little society of 100 has 20,000 calories a day to distribute. In Bas's model, we have one person who consumes 13,378 calories a day, and 99 who live on about 69 calories a day. How long would a society like that persist -- 99 people starving to death and spending half their days carting away the excrement of an 800-lb. shut-in who sh!ts like a goose? That's not a society in any sense... it's f*cking Auschwitz.
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Re: Inequality (US Vs. Europe)

Unread postby Nickel » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 08:54:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ROCKMAN', 'A')nd who put the money up to start the co-op ghost?


Where did that money come from in the first place? The exploitation of other human beings, or do you purport that the wealthy are blessed people who literally sh!t gold?


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ROCKMAN', 'I')f it was the employees then they were rich in the first place if they could fund a start up biz.


That's exactly what they are, collectively, and the majority of their industry is taken from them by the wealthy. Effectively, it's pooled by one person or corporation to create industries that could not easily otherwise come about -- which would leave everyone in the field hoeing turnips. But a state can do exactly the same thing. It's praiseworthy to conservatives when a selfish individual does this largely to his own benefit, but anathema to them for the collectivity of the people to do the same themselves. Curious.
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Re: Inequality (US Vs. Europe)

Unread postby Javaman » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 09:33:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nickel', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ROCKMAN', 'A')nd who put the money up to start the co-op ghost?


Where did that money come from in the first place? The exploitation of other human beings, or do you purport that the wealthy are blessed people who literally sh!t gold?


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ROCKMAN', 'I')f it was the employees then they were rich in the first place if they could fund a start up biz.


That's exactly what they are, collectively, and the majority of their industry is taken from them by the wealthy. Effectively, it's pooled by one person or corporation to create industries that could not easily otherwise come about -- which would leave everyone in the field hoeing turnips. But a state can do exactly the same thing. It's praiseworthy to conservatives when a selfish individual does this largely to his own benefit, but anathema to them for the collectivity of the people to do the same themselves. Curious.


Please explain the major differences between North and South Korea.

Please explain the differences, in economic terms and standard of living, between West Germany and East Germany before the reunification.

Also, please explain what the purposes of the Berlin Wall and the Iron Curtain were.
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Re: Inequality (US Vs. Europe)

Unread postby simplelife » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 13:05:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nickel', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ROCKMAN', 'A')nd who put the money up to start the co-op ghost?


Where did that money come from in the first place? The exploitation of other human beings, or do you purport that the wealthy are blessed people who literally sh!t gold?


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ROCKMAN', 'I')f it was the employees then they were rich in the first place if they could fund a start up biz.


That's exactly what they are, collectively, and the majority of their industry is taken from them by the wealthy. Effectively, it's pooled by one person or corporation to create industries that could not easily otherwise come about -- which would leave everyone in the field hoeing turnips. But a state can do exactly the same thing. It's praiseworthy to conservatives when a selfish individual does this largely to his own benefit, but anathema to them for the collectivity of the people to do the same themselves. Curious.


U.S. is a free county if people want to pool their assests and start a business then they certainly can. You seem to imply they cannot?
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Re: Inequality (US Vs. Europe)

Unread postby Nickel » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 13:10:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Javaman', 'P')lease explain the major differences between North and South Korea.

Please explain the differences, in economic terms and standard of living, between West Germany and East Germany before the reunification.

Also, please explain what the purposes of the Berlin Wall and the Iron Curtain were.


What, you want simple answers? Okay. South Korea, West Germany, and Western Europe in general were attached to the sole remaining major power not destroyed in the course of the Second World War, which went around the world acquiring assets in a literal global fire sale.

Now, please explain to the rest of us why the hard-and-fast planned economies of Eastern Europe were more affluent than fully-free market economies in Africa and Latin America.

Please explain to us why China, a planned economy, is in a position to lend money to Western economies (the United States in particular), and a creditor to free market economy debtor nations.
Last edited by Nickel on Sat 20 Dec 2008, 13:14:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inequality (US Vs. Europe)

Unread postby Nickel » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 13:12:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('simplelife', 'U').S. is a free county if people want to pool their assests and start a business then they certainly can. You seem to imply they cannot?


And what if "people" are, in fact, "the people"?
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Re: Inequality (US Vs. Europe)

Unread postby Jester » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 13:39:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')as wrote:
I have a proposition:

what if you had a society of 100 people.

99 of these people would have 1 wealth and the 1 would have 200 wealth, the total wealth would be 299.

Now what if through wealth redistribution these 99 people would have 2 wealth and the 1 would have "only" 20? The total wealth would be 218, so the total wealth would be less.

What system would you prefer?

//
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jester', '.')..

I suppose this depends on the big picture view of "better off". Does being in debt beyond ones means, indicate "better"? Borrowing to support a lifestyle they can't afford isn't better, is it? Isn't it 40-50% of Americans that spend more than they earn each year? Is digging themselves into a whole, deeper every year, the better way?
*sigh you just don't want to leave me alone do you?*

If you insist on replying to my post then why don't you answer the question?
If income redistribution is so great then how come the average French person doesn't make $80,000 a year while an American makes $40,000 hmmm?
ANSWER THE QUESTION
never mind --> you do not dare to open your mouth because you know what the answer is.
Income redistribution looks good on paper but it doesn't work in reality.


You have a lot to learn about discussion and debate. Having a tantrum and acting like a 6 year old doesn't make anything you say have a stronger position...

If you tried to base it on how much someone made, with no reality injected into it, then the premise is horribly flawed. So if you make more, your standard of living must be better? So a guy in Zimbabwe that is a millionaire in his country must be living the high life! Since the majority of people in Zimbabwe are millionaires, they clearly have the greatest economic plan ever. Obviously this isn't the case.

I think it comes down to what a person views as better overall. Is it based on a big picture of everyone, or is it just your own family snapshot. I would rather live in a society where everyone had proper health care and necessities of life, I view things like that as better overall.

but you ignored the point I had made anyways... Is it better if you're living at a standard you can't actually afford, because you've been financing it? With 40-50% of Americans spending more than they make, then that percentage of Americans are living at a false standard, and when it crashes down, suddenly they're impoverished... Anyone, in any country, borrowing more than they make, to live beyond their actual means, will temporarily have a higher standard of living. But eventually that play money dries up, and with it, the false pretense of the better life. If Americans weren't borrowing themselves into oblivion, and everything they had was within their means, then it would be great... but that is not the case.
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Re: Inequality (US Vs. Europe)

Unread postby cube » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 18:43:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jester', 'Y')ou have a lot to learn about discussion and debate.
ANSWER THE QUESTION

//

Why are you avoiding the question???
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Re: Inequality (US Vs. Europe)

Unread postby Jester » Sun 21 Dec 2008, 03:34:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jester', 'Y')ou have a lot to learn about discussion and debate.
ANSWER THE QUESTION

//

Why are you avoiding the question???


Act like an adult, communicate like one, and then see what replies you get?

I answered with the same type of logic as you used, and you didn't like it? My statements were rebuttals to yours, yet you can't respond to them?

Like I said, by your criteria, if you make more, it's a more successful system. So all the people in Zimbabwe making several million a month are proof positive their system is hands down the best.
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Re: Inequality (US Vs. Europe)

Unread postby cube » Sun 21 Dec 2008, 05:27:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jester', 'A')ct like an adult, communicate like one, and then see what replies you get?
Why did you reply to me first?
Why did you initiate a discussion with me and then start avoiding the question?

The answer is obvious. It was your intention from the very beginning to simply try and annoy me.
Nice try --> it did NOT work.
I think it is you who needs to grow up and act like an adult.

There's a word for people like you and it's called being a Troll.
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Re: Inequality (US Vs. Europe)

Unread postby Nickel » Sun 21 Dec 2008, 09:17:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jester', 'A')ct like an adult, communicate like one, and then see what replies you get?
Why did you reply to me first?
Why did you initiate a discussion with me and then start avoiding the question?


He's got your number, Cube; he's answered your challenge. You just don't like what he said. But he did rather ably reveal the fatuity of your thesis that affluence is simply a matter of bean-counting by evoking Zimbabwe. Affluence is really a much wider consideration than that, and has to take into account the facilities, opportunities, and services available to the individual -- and take-home pay is only one aspect of that.
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