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Fed cuts rate to zero

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Fed cuts rate to zero

Unread postby eastbay » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 01:25:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', ' ') I don't mean this confrontationally at all - What would you do Monte? If you were the fed chairman, what would you do right now?
Take the pain rather than look desperately for the next bubble to try and inflate.

We all know full well that isn't going to happen. So the question is: What will happen?

With the answer to that someone could make a few bucks. My suspicion is that Peter Schiff's scenario is the likely outcome and one should, in addition to all other prudent preparations, care for any money they might have at least partially (maybe more than partially) as he suggests.
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Re: Fed cuts rate to zero

Unread postby MonteQuest » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 01:29:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', ' ')With the answer to that someone could make a few bucks. My suspicion is that Peter Schiff's scenario is the likely outcome and one should, in addition to all other prudent preparations, care for any money they might have at least partially (maybe more than partially) as he suggests.


Any money that says Federal Reserve Note on it is not safe, whether in a bank or under your mattress. That's what a depression is: no safe haven.
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Re: Fed cuts rate to zero

Unread postby eastbay » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 01:34:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', ' ')With the answer to that someone could make a few bucks. My suspicion is that Peter Schiff's scenario is the likely outcome and one should, in addition to all other prudent preparations, care for any money they might have at least partially (maybe more than partially) as he suggests.


Any money that says Federal Reserve Note on it is not safe, whether in a bank or under your mattress. That's what a depression is: no safe haven.



Well, with a mixture of property, gold, and energy mutual funds one could at least guard somewhat against the ravages of the coming inflation. The game is now wealth preservation, or loss minimization, so things of intrinsic value should constitute a major portion of one's total 'package'.
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Re: Fed cuts rate to zero

Unread postby Jotapay » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 01:44:12

I completely agree with Monte, Eastbay, Ron Paul, Dennis Kucinich, and others.

The answer is to dissolve the Fed and return control of the US money supply to the US treasury and US congress, as mandated by the constitution, versus the US money supply being controlled by foreign banking families and domestic oligarchs who own the Federal Reserve. We lost at least two presidents to assassination who tried to do this, so it isn't exactly easy. The banking families are interested in keeping their power, obviously. I guess once your families have financed at minimum a dozen world wars on both sides, you feel like you have some leverage and can do whatever you want.
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Re: Fed cuts rate to zero

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 01:51:49

I guess I don't share the enthusiasm that a lot of folks have to gold backed currencies. It's really all about creating something that doesn't move and will serve as a consistent medium of exchange. Gold is really no different from anything else in that way. It's just about as abstract as paper currency. The problem that silver and gold as a currency has always been one of hoarding. The rich tend to hoard all the currency and then there end up being big segments of the economy that have to resort to bartering because they can't get access to currency. In a paper currency system, that problem can be avoided because the supply of circulating currency can be more or less controlled. Also it's pretty hard to justify the ecological devastation that goes with hard rock mining, if all we're doing with it is using it for currency. Paper is way less destructive.
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Re: Fed cuts rate to zero

Unread postby MonteQuest » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 01:52:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jotapay', ' ')
The answer is to dissolve the Fed and return control of the US money supply to the US treasury and US congress, as mandated by the constitution, versus the US money supply being controlled by foreign banking families and domestic oligarchs who own the Federal Reserve.


Yup. An excerpt from my book, Madmen at the Helm:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hough unconstitutional, as only “The Congress shall have Power...To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof...” (Article I, Section 8, U.S. Constitution) the Federal Reserve Act was passed in December 1913; ostensibly to stabilize the economy and prevent further panics, but as Lindberg warned Congress: “This act establishes the most gigantic trust on earth...the invisible government by the money power, proven to exist by the Money Trust investigation, will be legalized.”

As Lindberg put it: “The new law will create inflation whenever the trusts want inflation...they can unload the stocks on the people at high prices during the excitement and then bring on a panic and buy them back at low prices...the day of reckoning is only a few years removed.” That day came in 1929, with the Stock Market crash and the Great Depression. It happened again with the tech bubble burst of 2000.
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Re: Fed cuts rate to zero

Unread postby MonteQuest » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 01:58:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', ' ')The problem that silver and gold as a currency has always been one of hoarding. The rich tend to hoard all the currency and then there end up being big segments of the economy that have to resort to bartering because they can't get access to currency. In a paper currency system, that problem can be avoided because the supply of circulating currency can be more or less controlled.


Only in theory...since we went off the gold standard in 1971, it has not only been less controlled, it has had no limits whatsoever. Gold-backed currency at least limited the amount of money in circulation and controlled price inflation.

Or were you speaking of gold and silver coins?
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Re: Fed cuts rate to zero

Unread postby mos6507 » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 02:28:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')Yup. An excerpt from my book, Madmen at the Helm:


Is that book being actively published? I couldn't find it anywhere. Maybe you should dust it off.
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Re: Fed cuts rate to zero

Unread postby Snowrunner » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 02:42:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', 'I') guess I don't share the enthusiasm that a lot of folks have to gold backed currencies. It's really all about creating something that doesn't move and will serve as a consistent medium of exchange. Gold is really no different from anything else in that way. It's just about as abstract as paper currency.


Actually there is a huge difference.

Paper literally grows on trees, with computers it's the press of the button it takes to create more "money".

The point being: Gold backed (or platinum or anything else) currencies ARE really the only way to go because money in and on itself HAS no value.

Day traders etc. have forgotten that money represents value but is not value. That's what has gotten lots of places on this planet into the situation we're in right now.

Neverending money? Why worry about something "ending" like oil?

People should re-read the story of King Midas with this in mind.
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Re: Fed cuts rate to zero

Unread postby MrBean » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 04:08:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', 'I') don't mean to pick Monte, but your post seems a little self contradictory.

On the one hand, you're saying that the fed won't be able to effectively add liquidity and we'll remain in a deflation like the Japanese did. On the other you're saying that the fed will be too successful at adding liquidity and will create run away inflation. You've hit momma bear and poppa bear. Kinda implies there must be an opening for baby bear and getting the liquidity just right.


Tells us a lot about the uncertaintly associated with this move, doesn't it? I think we might get both. A long deflationary period followed by hyperinflation. We might get our own "Lost Decade."

When Japan had it's crisis, we didn't have the degree of globalization and interconnected banks like we do now. I don't think anyone knows how this will play out, but I really do wonder how the FED will recall all this liquidity when the time comes to do so.

Even if we get a baby bear result, the growth in the economy will once again fuel inflation as it pushes up against energy and resource supply.

Can you imagine rapid inflation with a shitload of liquidity out there?

Weimar Germany 1923?


It can be even worse and probably will. As I've said what is perfectly possible is to have both asset deflation and price inflation at the same time. Meaning no money to buy food, gas and other vital necessities for the averadge consumer. Let them eat cake say those at the top and then to the Bastille. Greece is the way of the future, not so distant but actually allready present. My WAG is that bigger riots will start in US 3rd or 4th quarter of 2009.
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Re: Fed cuts rate to zero

Unread postby MrBean » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 04:18:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('perdition79', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jotapay', '1'). Yes but we grow and produce more than Iceland does. We grow more crops than any other country. But if we can't import oil with a worthless currency, the tractors and fertilizer won't be there for the farmer.
We still produce more than enough oil here in the U.S. to make fertilizer. It's mainly used for transport of fertilizer, and a bit in production. If fertilizer and grain were our only exports, Americans would no longer drive cars, they'd be on bicycles by Federal mandate. Phosphate fertilizer is made with natural gas, and we can keep using it up at our current rate for another ten years before it peaks. I'm glad I work in the fertilizer industry, it may be one of the only industries this nation can sustain.

I'm very glad you work in the fertilizer industry, with your expertize it's sure to go down ASAP... phosphate is mined, nitrogen made from NG. :)

Less seriously, I'm not so sure if TPTB really will give a fuck if Joe6pack dies of hunger and start to regulate and socialize agroproduction and make their slaves go on bikes so there would be enough diesel to keep the tractors going and cows farting methane. They have Herr Doctor Strangelove advising them.
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Re: Fed cuts rate to zero

Unread postby MrBean » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 04:32:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jotapay', 'M')onte is two steps ahead of the present. But Monte, if this absolutely massive monetary expansion breaks out onto the consumer level, good luck stopping it. Trying to stop it will produce a whip-saw roller coaster ride for sure.

If? It's supposed to, that's their plan. How do you think they are going to pay pensions and unemployment money and food coupons and salaries for federal and state workers, wars and weapons and soldiers and mercenaries and all that jazz? With taxpayer money flooding the Treasury? With more debt from foreigners or from IMF? No, with printing machine. They got no other choise - or one other choise (kill the surpluss population before the surpluss population kills them). The only sensible thing, disbanding the military and sending soldiers to start permaculture coops and/or supervise land redistribution and (nearly) balancing the budget with one strike, is of course out of the question. :)
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Re: Fed cuts rate to zero

Unread postby MrBean » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 04:38:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', 'I') guess I don't share the enthusiasm that a lot of folks have to gold backed currencies. It's really all about creating something that doesn't move and will serve as a consistent medium of exchange. Gold is really no different from anything else in that way. It's just about as abstract as paper currency. The problem that silver and gold as a currency has always been one of hoarding. The rich tend to hoard all the currency and then there end up being big segments of the economy that have to resort to bartering because they can't get access to currency. In a paper currency system, that problem can be avoided because the supply of circulating currency can be more or less controlled. Also it's pretty hard to justify the ecological devastation that goes with hard rock mining, if all we're doing with it is using it for currency. Paper is way less destructive.

wiki

Or just barter. Or even better: link
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Re: Fed cuts rate to zero

Unread postby MonteQuest » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 11:03:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'Y')up. An excerpt from my book, Madmen at the Helm:
Is that book being actively published? I couldn't find it anywhere. Maybe you should dust it off.

A free PDF copy of it has been available to PO.com members for years. Send me a pm with a e-mail addy.
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Re: Fed cuts rate to zero

Unread postby threadbear » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 12:59:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', ' ')In a paper currency system, that problem can be avoided because the supply of circulating currency can be more or less controlled. Also it's pretty hard to justify the ecological devastation that goes with hard rock mining, if all we're doing with it is using it for currency. Paper is way less destructive.

The problem can't be avoided. The paper devalues and people seek a safe haven. When gold is avoided as an inflationary sponge, essential commodities start to soak it up and drive up price of things that are necessary for life and limb. This is pretty much what happened last summer.
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Re: Fed cuts rate to zero

Unread postby oowolf » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 19:06:15

It was only 2 months ago, Greenie was getting his knuckles rapped for driving rates so low! Welcome to Wonderland.
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Re: Fed cuts rate to zero

Unread postby glowring » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 03:30:35

DAZZLE THEM WITH BS. Whatever they say is a lie.

the truth is they are trying to make it look like they are saving the country while in reality they are destroying it on purpose. thats the facts, man.
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Re: Fed cuts rate to zero

Unread postby perdition79 » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 04:46:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBean', 'I')'m very glad you work in the fertilizer industry, with your expertize it's sure to go down ASAP... phosphate is mined, nitrogen made from NG.

Damn stickler for details! If I would have typed "DAP" or "GMAP" instead of the more generic "phosphate fertilizer", most people here would have no idea what I meant, or would be compelled to hit control+T and google stuff.
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Re: Fed cuts rate to zero

Unread postby JoeW » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 14:53:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', 'B')reaking news. The fed has cut it's rate target to from 0 to 0.25%.

Bernanke is a personal buddy of mine. He told me in strictest confidence that the idea came to him while he was watching football last Sunday. A Toyota commercial came on, with a catchy jingle. "Saved By Zero!" was the mantra. "Yes, Saved By Zero!" he thought. "Brilliant!"
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