[shakespear1]

Jefferson had the right idea regarding ward republic as he knew how power works and how it concentrates itself. However there is no chance for this to fly anytime soon.

Gary Hart wrote a book regarding this issue which initialy started out as his PhD work.

[CarlosFerreira]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '
')I don't want to speak for Quinny, but I think I know what he is driving at. Capitalism even in unfettered form without the bogus interventions of Goobermint inevitbaly leads to centralization of wealth. Money is Power in a "Democracy", the same folks from the same families get elected all the time. The Bushes are one example, but you have others in all states, and even on the occassion you get a newby in the mix, that politician gets bought as well by money.

You cannot have Democracy in a Capitalist system, anymore than a corporation is run Democratically. Do the workers in any company have a Vote in what that company does? Only int he case of a pwerful Union is that true, but of course Capitalists decry Unions as being anti-Capitalist themselves, since they prevent the free use of Labor at the cheapest price you can get it.

the concepts of Democracy and Capitalism are anti-thetical.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CarlosFerreira', 'J')ust yesterday I had a big argument with a colleague who says the current crisis is the proof Capitalism is a failure.
...

[CarlosFerreira]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CarlosFerreira', 'J')ust yesterday I had a big argument with a colleague who says the current crisis is the proof Capitalism is a failure.
...

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CarlosFerreira', '.')..
I agree up to here with you, cube. Really, I do.

But I can't agree about the last sentence. I have a lot to be thankful for, especially to people in this forum. You, phaster, MrBill - one moment or another, I was a bit rude with any of you, but you came back and made your point and forced me to think about what I was saying. I think it's good to discuss and explain to people who don't understand - as long as they ask.

[Quinny]

Thanks RE and sorry for the delay, this slipped under the radar.

Capitalism enables/encourages votes to be bought.

Decisions on production are made by a one pound one vote system rather than one person one vote. So small town with rich guy decides that new access road is worth more than clean water.

Advertising/Promotion money buys power especialliy in USA.

Loads of other examples, but I'm too drunk sorry.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CarlosFerreira', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'C')apitalism spoils Democracy!

[CarlosFerreira]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'M')aybe I'm becoming a bitter old man. This is what I look like right now.

[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CarlosFerreira', 'J')ust yesterday I had a big argument with a colleague who says the current crisis is the proof Capitalism is a failure.
...

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', '.')..You mean like a "gasoline czar" ? How absurd! Fortunately our free-marketer leaders are appointing a "car czar" to solve the problem.

[cube]

What I have learned from talking to (anti free-marketers)

1) EVERYBODY agrees we do NOT live in a free-market economy.
Therefore if something bad happens, it will be blamed on the free-market.

2) The free-market is a system in which decisions are NOT made by government.
Therefore any decision made by government will be blamed on the free-market.

3) If someone proposes creating another government program to solve a problem created by a government program.
Then such person is called a supporter of the free-market.

4) If somebody is a Communist then they are a supporter of the free-market.

5) If somebody like to practice archery by shooting apples off the top of a people's heads and they accidentally miss,
then they are a supporter of the free-market.

[CarlosFerreira]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'W')hat I have learned from talking to (anti free-marketers)

1) EVERYBODY agrees we do NOT live in a free-market economy.
Therefore if something bad happens, it will be blamed on the free-market.

2) The free-market is a system in which decisions are NOT made by government.
Therefore any decision made by government will be blamed on the free-market.

3) If someone proposes creating another government program to solve a problem created by a government program.
Then such person is called a supporter of the free-market.

4) If somebody is a Communist then they are a supporter of the free-market.

5) If somebody like to practice archery by shooting apples off the top of a people's heads and they accidentally miss,
then they are a supporter of the free-market.

[threadbear]

The US, has, for years been an economy with a strong centrally planned economy under the pentagon. 85% of all manufacturing that takes place in the US now, is to fill military contracts. In the last few decades , the balance of the social interest against private corporations has been tilting in favour of piracy. This probably started when the military was overthrown by corporations, and has now, through globalization, eaten up the financial and economic sector.

[efarmer]

We are at the point where we need to sell off our current
generation of weapons so that we create viable threats
to stimulate the industry to develop the new weapons
we must build to counter these new threats into the
future. Do we know how to run a nation that is not on
a war footing? Threadbear and Ike on the same page,
whoda thunkit?

[phaster]

I'm kinda glad this thread is sticky because it has given me the opportunity to ponder what I thought about the market, wheather its free and open or some kind of command economy.

Also since I don't have a formal education on the subject and with the current problems in the economy, its kinda interesting to think about the different schools of economics, such as keynesian economics vs. the austrian school and what would be best to deal with the little problem the world seems to be having.

The way I see it, there is no one specific solution to the dilemma, nor is there an adequate way in math or economics to describe how to deal a contraction in the system (and this goes for credit, oil and other natural resources) while at the same time trying to manage increasing populations and peaking consumer expectations.

Personally its kinda cool being alive in this "interesting" period because I see some kind of new system being developed that will be concerned about "sustainablity"

http://www.uvm.edu/giee/?Page=videos.ht ... tmenu.html

[shady28]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('phaster', '
')Personally its kinda cool being alive in this "interesting" period because I see some kind of new system being developed that will be concerned about "sustainablity"

http://www.uvm.edu/giee/?Page=videos.ht ... tmenu.html

[threadbear]

Well said, Shady. I think of capitalism in an organic way. The first stage is healthy growth, the second is malignancy and the third is calcification. I think we're in calcification now. We have utterly seized up, our banking system may as well be turning to stone.

[CarlosFerreira]

Shady, do you really believe we don't understand anything with each tumble? I see it as a result of market's normal oscillations - they go up and down in circles, as is widely known. It's only natural that should happen.
We'll get out of it as we always do. And I don't think many of the controls enacted at the time of the Great Depression will return. What I hope is that the UK's Prime Minister in 100 years won't proclaim boom-and-bust are over...

[phaster]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shady28', '
')
The only thing we learn from history is that we don't learn from history.

[Serial_Worrier]

Regardless of the merits of free-market economics, it will never happen because the population's emotions can be so easily swayed towards socialism. The evidence is in the last election.

[Fiddlerdave]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Serial_Worrier', 'R')egardless of the merits of free-market economics, it will never happen because the population's emotions can be so easily swayed towards socialism. The evidence is in the last election.