[smallpoxgirl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'J')ust so to get you to go on the record here, do you advocate a free for all on the streets where anybody tall enough to reach the pedals can drive, and drive in any reckless manner they wish?

[KevO]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'I') wish there were an island you could go to where there were no rules..

[3rensho]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KevO', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'I') wish there were an island you could go to where there were no rules..

[Byron100]

I think the whole crux of this argument is whether or not we desire a "punishment" society. Here, let us sell you a 125 mph car for just a few month's salary, but you will be PUNISHED if you go astray of any one of 5000 traffic laws. Let's make obtaining a driver's license doable for almost everyone in society, and let the sizable minority of drivers who really *shouldn't be driving* make costly mistakes and suffer "punishment" in the way of exorbitant insurance premiums, costly traffic tickets and unaffordable car repair bills due to the lack of education of car maintenance.

I think we need to look at this from a whole different angle - starting with providing *alternatives* to the automobile, in both urban and rural settings. Stuff like inter-city and intra-urban rail. Commuter busway lines which have worked so well elsewhere. A publicly funded rural bus system. Better land-use planning to get people, jobs and shopping/entertainment in close proximity. Then perhaps we can set about reducing the dependence on these fossil-fuel guzzlers and reduce the overall risk to society.

It's far better to lead people with the carrot instead of beating them over with a stick. Take my childhood, for example, I learned quite well to be sneaky, lie low and whatever you do, DON'T GET CAUGHT, lest I receive the dreaded hand on the rear end. Too bad there was no reward for doing "good" around the house...as all I learned was how to avoid being "bad".

Now apply this to the car-driving populace, and give it some thought. I say let's change the paradigm, and do things from a wholesome point of view, instead of wielding the stick of authority in a vain, misguided effort to control people's behavior.

[smallpoxgirl]

That's part of it. IMHO, it's about a broader agenda of control based on fear. Government's are composed of power hungry people, and their overall agenda is to increase their power over people. The broad picture of how you do that is that you pass so many laws that people can't possibly ever comply with them all. This causes people to: A: fear the government and B: feel ashamed of themselves for their transgressions. When people feel ashamed of themselves, the number one way they will seek to cope with that emotion is by finding someone else to look down on. So people who feel bad about breaking the law themselves will clamor for greater enforcement against "worse" lawbreakers. Combine this with a government and media that promote the idea that any time anything bad happens, it could have been prevented through greater government surveillance and control. Now you have a recipe for creeping fascism, and that's what we have in this country. Creeping fascism. We are moving one step at a time to a world where the government will monitor every action of every citizen all day long, and everyone will live in continuous mortal fear of punishment for their numerous legal infractions.

[vision-master]

Gost Rider

500 hp Hayabusa

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '
')We are moving one step at a time to a world where the government will monitor every action of every citizen all day long, and everyone will live in continuous mortal fear of punishment for their numerous legal infractions.

[eastbay]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', '[')url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYU7grn_STI]Gost Rider[/url]

500 hp Hayabusa

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', '
')Now apply this to the car-driving populace, and give it some thought. I say let's change the paradigm, and do things from a wholesome point of view, instead of wielding the stick of authority in a vain, misguided effort to control people's behavior.

[ReverseEngineer]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '
')We are moving one step at a time to a world where the government will monitor every action of every citizen all day long, and everyone will live in continuous mortal fear of punishment for their numerous legal infractions.

[smallpoxgirl]

Yeah. Like RE says, we're basically already there. Your actions are monitored almost everywhere you go in a city by cameras. The FCC mandates that your cell phone have a GPS chip in it that they can use to track your movements. We spend something like a third of our GDP on government. 1/3 of all the productive output of our society gets spent on bureaucrats following us around and fining us if we don't follow all the rules. If you go to California, it will cost you several hundred dollars just to get a copy of all the laws you're expected to follow. In paper form it fills several book cases. You think a moment ever goes by that you're not violating one of those? Highly unlikely. Furthermore theres an awful lot of people, like yourself mos, who have been made so timorous and insecure by the whole process that they actually clamor in support of things like red light cameras because they are actually fearful of someone running a red light at 2 am. They have come to believe that without all these armies of police and bureaucrats constantly surveilling them that they would be in actual physical danger.

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', ' ')We are moving one step at a time to a world where the government will monitor every action of every citizen all day long, and everyone will live in continuous mortal fear of punishment for their numerous legal infractions.

[letitburn84]

dont care for speeding tickets, do care for red light cameras.

Lost my first car to an impatient d-bag I watched drive through the intersection across from and ahead of me (after slowing down to get to our red light, then speeding back up!), get t-boned, landed on my hood.

other than that I got 300 horses, im aero-drag-limited to 154 mph and i need to stretch my legs so watch out!

seriously though, some of the 55 mph roads up here, people like to do 80+ on em, but with the construction that is nearly endless it isnt too safe to do much more than 65 anyway. curves with concrete barriers will kill you if people f up.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '
')Furthermore theres an awful lot of people, like yourself mos, who have been made so timorous and insecure by the whole process that they actually clamor in support of things like red light cameras because they are actually fearful of someone running a red light at 2 am. They have come to believe that without all these armies of police and bureaucrats constantly surveilling them that they would be in actual physical danger.

[Byron100]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', '
')Now apply this to the car-driving populace, and give it some thought. I say let's change the paradigm, and do things from a wholesome point of view, instead of wielding the stick of authority in a vain, misguided effort to control people's behavior.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', '
')No, wielding the stick and making people live in shame and fear never does a society any good. In a different society, the government would learn to fear us, instead of the other way around.