Peak Oil
Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Its over, US asks foreign gov'ts for financial aid

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL
Post a reply

Re: Its over, US asks foreign gov'ts for financial aid

Unread postby Pretorian » Fri 21 Nov 2008, 04:45:50

There are 600 000 Kuweitis-- US kindly asked only for $94000 each. Sweet!
Pretorian
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4685
Joined: Sat 08 Apr 2006, 03:00:00
Location: Somewhere there
Top

Re: Its over, US asks foreign gov'ts for financial aid

Unread postby SuperTico » Fri 21 Nov 2008, 06:37:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ayame', 'E')xcuse me mister but wasn't that the plan all along.
Annonce a bail-out and then try and get some chinese/middle eastern/indian suckers to finance it.
Effectively, the same game is being played with the Saudis as was played with Congress by Paulson to get a Blank Check. You threaten a complete collapse if they DON'T Pony Up the money, instill such FEAR in them that they feel they have NO CHOICE but to do it.
Everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY is terrified right now by what is going on. Money is burning up here faster than it can be printed and there is no way to establish a true value in monetary terms to ANYTHING right now. Not commodities like Oil or Food, not equities and manufaturing capability like the Chinese have but cannot use, and not even in a surplus of liquid capital like some of the Creditor nations still show on the books.
Week in and week out here, the DJIA drops another 1000 or so points, propped up periodically by the PPT but still spinning inexorably downward. Hedge Funds are trying to liquidate and EVERYONE is running for the fire exit at the same time. Katy Bar the Door! Even if they get to the exit door first though, where do you GO with the money, and in what form do you take it?
Still UNSPOKEN here in the MSM and even on this board really is what MUST be occurring now in the CDS market. Trillions of dollars in contracts that must be accounted for, and WHO holds them? I would bet dollars to doughnuts that the Chinese and the Japanese have obligations here that are extraordinary. If you do not know what those obligations are, just how is it you would assume those countries are solvent?
The Chinese and Japanese are as terrified here as everyone else, and so are the Saudi Sheiks. Good grief, at the moment the Oil they have in the ground is close to WORTHLESS, nobody can afford to buy it even at rock bottom prices that are about certainly below the cost of production in this monetary system. If they can't sell it, HOW do they feed their populations in that Desert?
The terror by itself is probably enough to get the Saudis to put up the $300B in a last ditch effort to save this system, but given the fact the CDS market runs into the TRILLIONS, this is a drop in the bucket and won't staunch the bleeding at all. Slow it down briefly is all perhaps.
The system HAS to collapse. Not just in the USA, GLOBALLY. All the currencies are tied together here, the contracts and obligations are international. It cannot hold up, its a house of cards built on quicksand in an earthquake zone, and right now the tectonic plates have shifted and this economic EARTHQUAKE is hitting 9.0 on the Richter scale. Its going to FLATTEN human civilization for a while, but it does not necessarily mean we cannot pick up the pieces afterwards. If Mother Nature does not close us out because we have passed the Tipping point, it will be possible to rebuild in the aftermath of this quake. One can only hope that the next time round, we do not choose the same path that led to this destruction again.

R.E. You know the answer to that.
Greed
+
Ego
= FAILURE.......
User avatar
SuperTico
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri 10 Oct 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Costa Rica
Top

Re: Its over, US asks foreign gov'ts for financial aid

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Fri 21 Nov 2008, 06:59:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SuperTico', 'R').E. You know the answer to that.
Greed+Ego= FAILURE.......

Yes indeed Tico, that is the equation that plays out here. Only to be superceeded by the more fundamental equation:

Gravity/Energy=Spirit

I am certain that as Energy goes to Zero, we shall see the Spirit rise to Infinity. In the presense of virtually Infinite Energy, there was no Spirit availale to tap. It's there now, I feel it in my bones.
I am not without Hope. I believe in the POWER of the Human Spirit.

Reverse Engineer
User avatar
ReverseEngineer
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3352
Joined: Wed 16 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Its over, US asks foreign gov'ts for financial aid

Unread postby Pretorian » Fri 21 Nov 2008, 07:32:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Colorado-Valley', 'H')mmm ... maybe we should sell Alaska back to the Russians. Dire times are here ...

If Russians will give anything for it, its just a sentimental value for them. Alaska cost to US, what? A million dollars per hour or so?

I doubt kremlin will pamper Alascans that much though.
Pretorian
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4685
Joined: Sat 08 Apr 2006, 03:00:00
Location: Somewhere there
Top

Re: Its over, US asks foreign gov'ts for financial aid

Unread postby skeptik » Fri 21 Nov 2008, 08:55:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', ' ')Alaska cost to US, what? A million dollars per hour or so?

Um... a million dollars per hour for how long? Thats a rate not a quantity.

Actual cost was 2 US cents an acre. payment was by cheque for $7.2 million drawn on the US Treasury.

Bargain!
User avatar
skeptik
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 418
Joined: Wed 24 Aug 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Costa Geriatrica, Spain
Top

Re: Its over, US asks foreign gov'ts for financial aid

Unread postby Zardoz » Fri 21 Nov 2008, 09:28:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('heroineworshipper', 'T')he Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooobs revolution has begun!

Please explain your thinking here, since he hasn't taken office yet. Elaborate, by all means. We'd really love to hear this.

EDIT:

Perhaps this is what you're talking about:

Obama poised to rebrand America, experts say

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')resident-elect Barack Obama is poised to restore the United States' image in the international community, but experts say the president-elect must show the world that his actions will live up to his rhetoric.

Receiving a warm welcome is not the same as maintaining one, and Obama has a lot of work to do to improve the U.S. brand.

America's image has declined in nearly every region of the world in recent years, but Obama's victory "enables the United States to start again with a clean slate," according to John Quelch, the senior associate dean at Harvard Business School.

"Americans can actually go to dinner parties and cocktail receptions around the world today and not have to apologize for the United States the way they have had to do the last several years," he said. "The election has made life a little bit easier for Americans living and traveling abroad to hold their head up high again."

The United States' tarnished reputation has been fueled by a combination of factors, including opposition to U.S. policies like the war Iraq and alleged torture and abuse of prisoners, the perception of hypocrisy, unilateralism, and the perceived war on Islam, according to a congressional report released in June.

Obama represents a "clean break" from the past, and his election is the first big step toward change, said Dick Martin, author of "Rebuilding Brand America."

"Changing America's standing in the world was going to be the work of a generation, and it would have to start with some kind of grand gesture that demonstrated that things were changing. His election in itself is that kind of grand gesture," he said.

That must be it. Certainly that's what you're referring to, because nothing else makes any sense whatsoever.
"Thank you for attending the oil age. We're going to scrape what we can out of these tar pits in Alberta and then shut down the machines and turn out the lights. Goodnight." - seldom_seen
User avatar
Zardoz
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 6323
Joined: Fri 02 Dec 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Oil-addicted Southern Californucopia
Top

Re: Its over, US asks foreign gov'ts for financial aid

Unread postby Nickel » Fri 21 Nov 2008, 16:19:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Colorado-Valley', 'H')mmm ... maybe we should sell Alaska back to the Russians. Dire times are here ...

If Russians will give anything for it, its just a sentimental value for them. Alaska cost to US, what? A million dollars per hour or so?


Hey, if anybody gets next crack at Alaska, it's us. Should have been ours anyway. :)
User avatar
Nickel
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1927
Joined: Tue 26 Jun 2007, 03:00:00
Location: The Canada of America
Top

Re: Its over, US asks foreign gov'ts for financial aid

Unread postby Nickel » Fri 21 Nov 2008, 16:24:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zardoz', '[')Obama poised to rebrand America, experts say

Obama represents a "clean break" from the past, and his election is the first big step toward change, said Dick Martin, author of "Rebuilding Brand America."


From now on, the United States of America will be know as The Wonderful World of Nifty. And its slogan, e pluribus unum, will be changed to, "gets your proles their whitest!" :)
User avatar
Nickel
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1927
Joined: Tue 26 Jun 2007, 03:00:00
Location: The Canada of America
Top

Re: Its over, US asks foreign gov'ts for financial aid

Unread postby nobodypanic » Fri 21 Nov 2008, 17:10:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', ' ') The system HAS to collapse.

i think you should play around w/the idea that the system has collapsed.

this is just, oh i don't know, residual energy, inertia, reflex... what have you.

i'd be curious to see what you come up with.
User avatar
nobodypanic
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1103
Joined: Mon 02 Jun 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Its over, US asks foreign gov'ts for financial aid

Unread postby Pretorian » Fri 21 Nov 2008, 17:23:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('skeptik', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', ' ')Alaska cost to US, what? A million dollars per hour or so?

Um... a million dollars per hour for how long? Thats a rate not a quantity.

Actual cost was 2 US cents an acre. payment was by cheque for $7.2 million drawn on the US Treasury.

Bargain!


Forever. 2 cents an acre are a bargain indeed, as long as there are no people who want something from you. I doubt US broke even with Alaska in any given year.
Pretorian
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4685
Joined: Sat 08 Apr 2006, 03:00:00
Location: Somewhere there
Top

Re: Its over, US asks foreign gov'ts for financial aid

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sat 22 Nov 2008, 02:55:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nobodypanic', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', ' ') The system HAS to collapse.

i think you should play around w/the idea that the system has collapsed.

this is just, oh i don't know, residual energy, inertia, reflex... what have you.

i'd be curious to see what you come up with.


"Chickens with heads cut off".

Is that the right answer? Do I get a prize?
User avatar
Keith_McClary
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 7344
Joined: Wed 21 Jul 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Suburban tar sands
Top

Re: Its over, US asks foreign gov'ts for financial aid

Unread postby idiom » Sat 22 Nov 2008, 03:55:25

At the moment the water is sucking out of the system and everybody is looking at all the 'oversold' stocks flapping around on the beach...
The world ends without a tragedy,Time is melting into history
The sky is falling, Voices crying out in desperation
Hear them calling, Everybody, save yourself
User avatar
idiom
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 672
Joined: Mon 23 Aug 2004, 03:00:00
Location: New Zealand
Top

Re: Its over, US asks foreign gov'ts for financial aid

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Sat 22 Nov 2008, 03:57:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nobodypanic', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', ' ') The system HAS to collapse.

i think you should play around w/the idea that the system has collapsed.

this is just, oh i don't know, residual energy, inertia, reflex... what have you.

i'd be curious to see what you come up with.


You can't really make the case as of yet that the system HAS collapsed, because of course there is still food on the supermarket shelves, there is still gas to be had at the INCREDIBLY low price of under $3/gal up here, and of course *I* am still employed! Far as I am concerned, this business about the economy crashing is all just a myth perpetuated here on Peak Oil. "The sun will come out Tomorrow, Tomorrow, its only a Day Away!". LOL.

Its not always even so easy to argue that the system is in the PROCESS of collapse with some of the members here. You still hear bandied about terms like "market correction" for a 50% loss of value in the DJIA. Mighty big correction there. LOL. In my book as a teacher, if I have to correct 50% of your WRONG answers on a test, you FAILED. I guess Capitalism is different though. As long as somebody still has $1 left at the end of all this, Capitalism remains a going concern and said person can buy up the entire world with that last dollar!

The other arguments put forth that the system doesn't necessarily HAVE to collapse are based on the idea its possible to print your way out of the debt as long as all the debt is denominated in dollars. You might make the currency worthless, but the system would actually remain intact in some of these arguments. Some other arguments are based on the idea that since some nations are Creditors, they might in the end buy up all the devalued assets for pennies on the dollar, and turn the entire US into a Slave state to the Chinese, thus perpetuating the system in a Role Reversal. The US hits the Transgender Nation Clinic and gets a Penectomy, and the Chinese fabricate a Penis in one of their still operating Factories I guess.

Now, I have spent the last few months battling these ideas, but somehow they still persist here on Peak Oil despite my best efforts and some interminably long posts, so one has to consider the possibility I could be WRONG here. LOL. I actually can envision ways in which the system could be salvaged in some form, so I cannot in all honesty make a 100% Guarantee of total collapse of the monetary system. However, those methods don't prevent a massive dislocation in economic terms, and I would still consider such a resolution to be a collapse.

Effectively, yes the system has already collapsed, its just a nightmare of paperwork involved in getting the collapse tallied up, and its not all occuring at the same speed in all parts of the building. This is not an instantaneous drop to ground level like the World Trade Center. Its a more spread out building, a bank fails here, an auto company fails there, a Hedge Fund liquidates somewhere else, and the credit markets are locked up like a Catholic School virgin in a Chastity Belt. LOL. These are clear signs the system has collapsed already, butt he effects still are not being felt by EVERY member of the society, so far only directly by some in the path of the Tsunami at the moment.

Because we have some kind of social welfare system in place with Unemployment Insurance, folks recently put out of work aren't yet completly destitute, their benefits won't run out for a few more months unless of course the Goobermint stops sending out checks. How big a load of jobless claims and benefits can this system support at any one time? Clearly, if they just print money to pay off on the benefits, this immediately contributes in direct form to inflation of the money supply in the real economy.

Anyhow, there are so many systems in place here and so many possible schemes to keep an economy of some sort running that you really do not hit a brick wall at 500MPH. Parts of the system break down, slowing down the machine, and the Air Bag of mediation schemes softens the crash some. At this point, I don't see the supermarket shelves going empty in a year, I think its going to take more than that to grind this part of the economy to a complete halt. I think there will be nationalization of the shipping industry and trucking industry and food production industry and energy industry. Will it operate with the marvelous efficiency of Capitalism when its all run by the Goobermint? That is a tough question to answer, because Capitalism operates in times of Plenty, and the waste and excesses of the system get hidden. Socialist, Fascist and Communist solutions operate in times of resource depletion, when the objective is not making a profit, but distributing out the pain of scarcity in some kind of equitable fashion, depending on what your concept of equity is. For some, that concept of equity is distributing out the remaining resources only to a few people and leaving the rest to twist in the wind. That is Fascism. Communism attempts to distribute out the remaining resources to the many. I don't think Democratic Socialism of the Swedish model really persists in this environment, any more than Capitalism can work in such an environment. You have to have a surplus for such a socialist system to operate, just as you need a surplus for Capitalism to operate.

Anyhow, to return to the point of the OP and get a little less abstract here, what you have worldwide is an inequitable distribution of resources, symbolized in the monetary system by excess Capital in some countries, and an excess of debt in others. Because the system is so far out of balance, Creditor nations are being asked to move Capital to debtor nations to keep the flow of money moving round here. If they DON'T do that, they are screwed because their goods won't be bought, and to my mind at least the idea that say the Chinese could plug the gap through internal demand is preposterous, but others here seem to think such a thing is possible. The Saudis are clearly in the deep doo doo, because ALL they have is Oil, and if the economic machine falls apart too rapidly, there is no market for their oil and they will STARVE. So I really could see the Saudis coughing up money here or "Oil Credits", basically shipping Oil to the US for food and a promise to pay something later. On the macro scale, this could keep the system moving along for at least a couple of year IMHO.

Has it collapsed? It all depends how you define what collapse IS. If collapse is a descent into African level poverty or Mad Max Zombie Wars, no we are not there yet. If you define collapse as a Stock Market and Trade system floundering and pissing out value faster than a J6P pisses out Beer after consuming a Case or two, we passed that point a while back. How long it takes for the latter form of collapse to translate to the former definition is an open question which NOBODY on Peak Oil can answer with any authority.

Reverse Engineer
User avatar
ReverseEngineer
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3352
Joined: Wed 16 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Its over, US asks foreign gov'ts for financial aid

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 22 Nov 2008, 04:55:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '
')The other arguments put forth that the system doesn't necessarily HAVE to collapse are based on the idea its possible to print your way out of the debt as long as all the debt is denominated in dollars. You might make the currency worthless, but the system would actually remain intact in some of these arguments.

Crash of capitalism as such will follow flip from growing to shrinking economy.
Capitalism with its usual instruments relying on credit expansion etc will cease to exist within few years following such switch.
Out of control inflation is likely to be a first sign of beginning of total unwind.
So enjoy your relatively short deflationary period which you observe right now.
Ih the future you are going to miss it.

Nevertheless even in shrinking economy you will have free market working very well, at least for considerable length of time. However it will be increasingly fragmented market where large institutions (and government) will increasingly lose its grip.
As time progress there will be more and more of lawlessness and money based economy will gradually be replaced by barter or hard assets (silver, gold) based economy.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') think there will be nationalization of the shipping industry and trucking industry and food production industry and energy industry. Will it operate with the marvelous efficiency of Capitalism when its all run by the Goobermint?

Nationalization will not prevent collapse of critical sectors, albeit it will slow it down a bit at the expense of destroying of still viable sectors of economy.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ocialist, Fascist and Communist solutions operate in times of resource depletion, when the objective is not making a profit, but distributing out the pain of scarcity in some kind of equitable fashion, depending on what your concept of equity is.

I disagree.
Communism and sometimes but not always fascism were up to date causes of transforming environment of plenty into environment of scarcity.
That is because they are extremely wasteful systems.
However few fascist setups, say rule of Pinochet in Chile, defy this observation.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')or some, that concept of equity is distributing out the remaining resources only to a few people and leaving the rest to twist in the wind. That is Fascism. Communism attempts to distribute out the remaining resources to the many.

You are certainly wrong here.
Both communism and fascist are distributing wealth from the nation to narrow elites, communists or fascist ones.
However fascist elites are ending up owning mainly means of production (factories etc) and communist elites are ending up owning mainly peoples.
That is because means of production (factories etc) are quickly destroyed with communism progress, so not much is left.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') don't think Democratic Socialism of the Swedish model really persists in this environment, any more than Capitalism can work in such an environment.
You are right here.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ow long it takes for the latter form of collapse to translate to the former definition is an open question which NOBODY on Peak Oil can answer with any authority.

From the time of peak performance (equivalent of year 2006 in US) to the year of collapse of communism in Poland about 14 years passed.
First ~4 years was seen as difficulties, following 2 years delivered civil uprisings properly crushed by government with introduction of martial laws and final 8 years was in environment of growing crisis defying all attempts of government to mitigate.
Within last ~2 years before it was all over collapse of economy gained momentum.

Soviet collapse have taken about the same length of time but following period of lawlessness was much longer and severe than in Poland.
That is because Yeltsin (first man in charge after collapse was not very capable leader).

However American collapse will be very different than Eastern block collapse.
There will be no one to pick a pieces left. :(

I hope, this timescale helps.
User avatar
EnergyUnlimited
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 7537
Joined: Mon 15 May 2006, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Its over, US asks foreign gov'ts for financial aid

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Sat 22 Nov 2008, 05:46:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '[')Crash of capitalism as such will follow flip from growing to shrinking economy.
Capitalism with its usual instruments relying on credit expansion etc will cease to exist within few years following such switch.
Out of control inflation is likely to be a first sign of beginning of total unwind.
So enjoy your relatively short deflationary period which you observe right now.
Ih the future you are going to miss it.


I think the total unwind has already begun, you do not need to wait for inflation to see it. I am still not certain though in this case that inflation results, as it did in prior collapses. The difference is the Black Hole of the CDS market. I believe that non stop printing of money will take place, but it will all get swallowed up in the black hole. Its for the reason that this exists I see a collpse of the monetary system as opposed to a Weimar style inflationary period. The system itslef implodes before the printed money can actually work its way outward tot he general economy. Its just sucked up too rpidly in the deflation fo the CDS market.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')evertheless even in shrinking economy you will have free market working very well, at least for considerable length of time. However it will be increasingly fragmented market where large institutions (and government) will increasingly lose its grip.
As time progress there will be more and more of lawlessness and money based economy will gradually be replaced by barte or hard assets (silver, gold) based economy.


Agreed, with the exception of the last portion regarding silver and gold as hard assets. This would depend on the environment in which you live. In a highly populated area with a tradition of using gold and silver as hard assets representing wealth, you MIGHT get some transition to this. In a low population zone where such things have little real value, they would not determine the trade structure. In my neighorhood, its much more likely good fishing tackle or Red Fox Fur Mittens will hold way more value than Gold would.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Nationalization will not prevent collapse of critical sectors, albeit it will slow it down a bit at the expense of destroying of still viable sectors of economy.


It remains an open question as to just what sector of the economy IS still viable? All asset Classes are losing value. So WHAT exactly is still "viable'?


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ocialist, Fascist and Communist solutions operate in times of resource depletion, when the objective is not making a profit, but distributing out the pain of scarcity in some kind of equitable fashion, depending on what your concept of equity is.

I disagree.
Communism and sometimes but not always fascism were up to date causes of transforming environment of plenty into environment of scarcity.
That is because they are extremely wasteful systems.
However few fascist setups, say rule of Pinochet in Chile, defy this observation.

I know of no communist or fascist system that grew up in an area of plenty that did not succeed. Mianly because such systems don't gorw up in such areas. Certainly Germany in the early part of the century was in resource depletion mode, so was Russia. China went communist and was the only one you might make a case was not resource depleted at the time, and their communist system lasted the longest. About as long as Capitalism did, so you cannot say it wastes resources any faster in real terms. What is a decade more or less here in the grand scheme of things?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')or some, that concept of equity is distributing out the remaining resources only to a few people and leaving the rest to twist in the wind. That is Fascism. Communism attempts to distribute out the remaining resources to the many.
You are certainly wrong here.
Both communism and fascist are distributing wealth from the nation to narrow elites, communists or fascist ones.
However fascist elites are ending up owning mainly means of production (factories etc) and communist elites are ending up owning mainly peoples.
That is because means of production (factories etc) are quickly destroyed with communism progress, so not much is left.

The ideal of communism and the practical application as it happenned in Russia are two totally different things. Regardless of that, you cannot say that at least in the early years of the Soviet Union, they did not destroy factories, but built them. Between the years of 1917 and 1938, they built a sufficient industrial apparatus based on communism (albeit a perverted form of this idea) sufficient to put up a good fight in the 2nd World War. You can make the case that a good part of the financing for that came from the same bankers that funded the Nazi military machine and the American one, but nevertheless since all 3 got the money from the bankers, all 3 systems did an OK job with building an industrial machine capable of fighting that war.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') don't think Democratic Socialism of the Swedish model really persists in this environment, any more than Capitalism can work in such an environment.
You are right here.

Always a scary thing when you and I agree EU. Does not bode well for the Swedes. LOL

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ow long it takes for the latter form of collapse to translate to the former definition is an open question which NOBODY on Peak Oil can answer with any authority.

From the time of peak performance (equivalent of year 2006 in US) to the year of collapse of communism in Poland about 14 years passed.
First ~4 years was seen as difficulties, following 2 years delivered civil uprisings properly crashed by government with introduction martial laws and final 8 years was in environment of growing crisis defying all attempts of government to mitigate.
Within last ~2 years before it was all over collapse of economy gained momentum.

Soviet collapse have taken about the same length of time but following period of lawlessness was much longer and severe than in Poland.
That is because Yeltsin (first man in charge after collapse was not very capable leader).

I hope, this timescale helps.

Best timeline to date published. It will be interesting to see how closely this collapse matches up with that one. The differences in the global nature of this collapse is the wild card that makes it hard to predict.

Reverse Engineer
User avatar
ReverseEngineer
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3352
Joined: Wed 16 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Its over, US asks foreign gov'ts for financial aid

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 22 Nov 2008, 23:02:56

ReverseEngineer wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 't')he idea its possible to print your way out of the debt as long as all the debt is denominated in dollars.


I don't think our foreign creditors will allow us to inflate our way out of our debts to them. Some Japanese economists are already making noise about this, calling for future T-bills to be issued in Yen.

By the way, I read some snippets indicating the Chinese aren't keen to pitch in one red cent to the worldwide financial rescue stuff. The Chinese president said something to the effect that China can best help the world by keeping it's own economy strong.
User avatar
Sixstrings
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 15160
Joined: Tue 08 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Its over, US asks foreign gov'ts for financial aid

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Sat 22 Nov 2008, 23:22:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '[')b]ReverseEngineer wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 't')he idea its possible to print your way out of the debt as long as all the debt is denominated in dollars.


I don't think our foreign creditors will allow us to inflate our way out of our debts to them. Some Japanese economists are already making noise about this, calling for future T-bills to be issued in Yen.

By the way, I read some snippets indicating the Chinese aren't keen to pitch in one red cent to the worldwide financial rescue stuff. The Chinese president said something to the effect that China can best help the world by keeping it's own economy strong.


Absolutely, if we want to roll over the debt and get the Japanese to buy it, then they want the debt denominated in Yen. It really doesn't matter since the Japanese are ALSO shortly to go bankrupt, but frankly why take the debt in Yen? You might as well just print up a Federal Reserve Note for $1T and hand it over to the Japanese NOW, and say, "Here ya go, now we don't owe you a dime". LOL.

Take the debt in Yen, take the debt in Yuan, take it in freaking MARBLES, it doesn't matter! We STILL can't pay it off! If they want to loan us Yen to keep floating another year, by all means TAKE THE MONEY! Its never going to be paid back ANYHOW. Its just a grand version of maxing out the credit cards before you go BUST.

Reverse Engineer
User avatar
ReverseEngineer
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3352
Joined: Wed 16 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Its over, US asks foreign gov'ts for financial aid

Unread postby idiom » Sun 23 Nov 2008, 03:15:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Its just a grand version of maxing out the credit cards before you go BUST.


At least Rocc and the government are on the same page.
The world ends without a tragedy,Time is melting into history
The sky is falling, Voices crying out in desperation
Hear them calling, Everybody, save yourself
User avatar
idiom
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 672
Joined: Mon 23 Aug 2004, 03:00:00
Location: New Zealand
Top
Previous
Post a reply

Return to Economics & Finance

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests