[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', '
')Fair enough. As a Libertarian, here is my list:

OK!

- Nothing

Not ok!

- Everything Else

[Novus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', '
')Fair enough. As a Libertarian, here is my list:

OK!

- Nothing

Not ok!

- Everything Else

[jlw61]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', '
')Fair enough. As a Libertarian, here is my list:

OK!

- Nothing

Not ok!

- Everything Else

[nobodypanic]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')'ll ask my question again to see if there's new perspective.

To the anti-socialists, what is it ok to have socialized, and what is it not ok?

Here is a listing based on my observations of what people seem to find ok and not ok to have socialized:

Ok :

- roads
- water
- sewer
- military
- electric service
- phone service
- police
- fire department


Not ok!

- health care

Please respond with your own listing of "ok" "not ok"

Thanks.

[jlw61]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nobodypanic', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')'ll ask my question again to see if there's new perspective.

To the anti-socialists, what is it ok to have socialized, and what is it not ok?

Here is a listing based on my observations of what people seem to find ok and not ok to have socialized:

Ok :

- roads
- water
- sewer
- military
- electric service
- phone service
- police
- fire department


Not ok!

- health care

Please respond with your own listing of "ok" "not ok"

Thanks.

[nobodypanic]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nobodypanic', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')'ll ask my question again to see if there's new perspective.

To the anti-socialists, what is it ok to have socialized, and what is it not ok?

Here is a listing based on my observations of what people seem to find ok and not ok to have socialized:

Ok :

- roads
- water
- sewer
- military
- electric service
- phone service
- police
- fire department


Not ok!

- health care

Please respond with your own listing of "ok" "not ok"

Thanks.

[jlw61]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nobodypanic', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nobodypanic', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')'ll ask my question again to see if there's new perspective.

To the anti-socialists, what is it ok to have socialized, and what is it not ok?

Here is a listing based on my observations of what people seem to find ok and not ok to have socialized:

Ok :

- roads
- water
- sewer
- military
- electric service
- phone service
- police
- fire department


Not ok!

- health care

Please respond with your own listing of "ok" "not ok"

Thanks.

[ReverseEngineer]

On one side of the debate sit the Communists, who seek to distribute the wealth of a nation to the many. On the other side sit the Fascists, who seek to distribute the wealth of a nation to the few. In the middle sit the Capitalists, who seek to enable everyone to steal what they can from everyone else.

Capitalism, Democracy, what have you works to an extent in a land of abundant resources for all, but of course the land eventually does give out. Its when you run into the resource shortage problem your society ends up moving down one road or the other, toward Fascism or Communism. I know of NO example of a Democratic/Capitalist system that ever worked in a resource poor nation. The only reason you can run a sham of "freedom" is that there is plenty to go round, until the greedy scarf up as much as they can anyhow.

In any small tribal society no man is ever free. He knows he is beholden to his tribe for survival, and his tribe needs him for as long as he is productive, and no longer. Nation-states are simply too big as organizational units for people, "government" becomes an abstract entity, its the "enemy" of the people. "Don't trust the Gooberment to get the job done", etc etc etc. Like you can really expect business owners looking out for their own self interest and profit to do a better job? Its ludicrous.

If humanity is to survive, the Nation State must be broken up into smaller communities of no more than 10,000 Human souls, organized tribally within defensible boundaries around 25,000 square miles in size. No Fascism or Communism, no Socialism or Capitalism, just your friends and your community living sustainably on what nature will provide from year to year. Such communities must be bounded by large bodies of water, great deserts or mountains. Really BIG mountains. The Great Wall that God Built.

Revrse Engineer

[Cloud9]

We all know that one man's utopia is another man's dystopia. Communism gives rise to a thugocracy like what you currently have in Russia. Capitalism gives rise monopolies and cartels, business cycles and depressions. None in their pure form are ideal. My original argument was that we are going to lean left for the next decade. That is much to my chagrin.

Fore those that call for the destruction of the nation state, we tried that once and Sherman showed up in Atlanta with a match and burned the place down around our ancestor’s ears.

I do hope that Mr. Obama leaves Middle America alone. Should he push his more liberal agendas of gun confiscation and the creation of a police state, it will not bode well for many of us.

[americandream]

There seems to be some confusion on here about the distinctions between systemic economics and systemic processes.

Capitalism and socialism are essentially economic systems for the management of common resources. In capitalism we elect to manage resource allocation hierarchically. In communism, we elect to allocate along the lines of equality.

How we then systematise the decisionmaking process is where democracy and other modes comes in. We may choose more authoritarian processes over more democratic ones. Therefore it would be more correct to speak of capitalist democracy as well as socialist democracy in contrast to say fascism or communism.

However, lets be clear. The decisionmaking processes, notwithstanding they be democratic, always remain qualified by the contextual economic system and to a significant degree remain dictatorships of one or other class. Which is why Marx referred to socialism as the dictatorship of labour.

In democratic capitalism, the dictatorship is implicit in terms of the limits imposed on thinking by forces of capital intent on preserving the status quo. These might take the form of nationalism, racism, culture and gender, academic no-go areas, religion, societal givens, limits to progressive labour oriented discourse, implied threats in terms of career and such like, more overt threats such as witchhunts, linguistic and inter-generational forms, media..both privately funded as well as publicly funded dominated by capital's agenda, capital oriented historical discourses, etc, etc.

In democratic socialism, the dictatorship is implicit in terms of the limits imposed on thinking by forces of labour intent on preserving the status quo. These might take the form of limits to progressive capital oriented discourse, implied threats in terms of community disapproval and isolation, more overt threats such as witchhunts, linguistic forms, publicly funded media dominated by labour's agenda, labour oriented heroic historical discourses, etc, etc.

Consequently, to argue that collectivisation of the corporate variety such as fascism and or labour variety such as communism are of the same ilk is to miss the point that each is the pure dictatorial form of either labour or capital...at one end of the spectrum from the more democratic form. Transitional processes in other words.

We note how Fascism spawned the libertarian free market after the war. Libertarianism is the least regulated form of hierarchical resource allocation, it's failure though is that whilst it seeks to harness self interest in advancing the human project, it fails to recognise that self interest does have its contradictions in terms of excluding any notions of collective responsibilty and hence we have the periodic crises during which resort has to be made to the transitional fascist forms.

Socialism is the least regulated form of egalitarian resource use, what I term labour Libertarianism. One possible candidate for this collective exercise may well be Cuba. I am watching her with quiet interest.

Hopefully this will put Hayek in context.

[ReverseEngineer]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'S')ocialism is the least regulated form of egalitarian resource use, what I term labour Libertarianism. One possible candidate for this collective exercise may well be Cuba. I am watching her with quiet interest.

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'S')ocialism is the least regulated form of egalitarian resource use, what I term labour Libertarianism. One possible candidate for this collective exercise may well be Cuba. I am watching her with quiet interest.

[Cloud9]

A man who thinks like I do.

http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=wt8PM1S7F9M

[ReverseEngineer]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', ' ')I still believe that capital will survive the next 5 decades as I believe it has not yet exhausted this potential in the rising consumer masses of Asia.

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', ' ')I still believe that capital will survive the next 5 decades as I believe it has not yet exhausted this potential in the rising consumer masses of Asia.

[ReverseEngineer]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'T')he timeline will differ according to our limited perspective. My 5 decades may well be off the wall and you may be correct...but pay the piper we shall by way of a violent and systemically convulsing labour oriented revolution. Of that we can be certain.

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'T')he timeline will differ according to our limited perspective. My 5 decades may well be off the wall and you may be correct...but pay the piper we shall by way of a violent and systemically convulsing labour oriented revolution. Of that we can be certain.

[ReverseEngineer]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '
')I guess New Zealand may well count as that great and isolated southern frontier so I shall concede my equally limited perspective