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Inflation not guaranteed? Shocking article--Shostack

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Inflation not guaranteed? Shocking article--Shostack

Unread postby americandream » Wed 15 Oct 2008, 22:39:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', 'Y')eah. I think we're probably done as the bastion of capitalism. In case you hadn't heard, Hank Paulson is running around buying up billions of dollars in bank stocks. When the government starts buying up private enterprise, that's called socialism
"Free-market capitalism" is unfortunately sometimes used interchangeablly however the 2 components are totally different.

Capitalism - simply means capital is owned by individuals. There is both the rich and poor. That will never change.

Free-market - that died off a long time ago just like the Dodo bird.

The USA originally had a free-market based economy --> then it shifted to a mixed economy during the great depression --> and now it's becoming what I call "authoritarian capitalism."
Basically the gooberment controls capital and decides where it should go. Russia, China, East Asia are good examples.

my 2 cents...


The child, adolescent and the adult.

These authoritarian economies of what were previously either feudal or labour centric economies have followed other growth paths in arriving at the same adulthood of the US economy.....corporatised socialism.

The next step beyond this is what I would term industrialised feudalism or mechanised barbarism. The ideal in terms of capital would of course be a global system with specialised characteristics but as we all know, depleting commodities will be putting paid to that and I suspect that our masters will have to suffice with good old fashioned raping and pillaging to secure what little they have left.
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Re: Inflation not guaranteed? Shocking article--Shostack

Unread postby americandream » Wed 15 Oct 2008, 22:44:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '[')b]Capitalism - simply means capital is owned by individuals. There is both the rich and poor. That will never change.


Exactly. And when the government starts buying up businesses, that's called socialism.


Would one term this a socialism of the suburban variety or perhaps a socialism more akin to those rather delectable and leafy suburbs the likes of you and I perhaps catch a glimpse of when delivering the caviare to our well heeled Green Party parliamentarians?

Utter bullshit! What the heck do they teach you in America?
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Re: Inflation not guaranteed? Shocking article--Shostack

Unread postby cube » Wed 15 Oct 2008, 22:49:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '[')b]Capitalism - simply means capital is owned by individuals. There is both the rich and poor. That will never change.


Exactly. And when the government starts buying up businesses, that's called socialism.
I disagree.
When I think of socialism I think of the government stealing from the rich and giving it to the (poor or middle class).
The opposite is happening right now. The gov. is stealing money from the middle class and giving it to the rich! :?
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Re: Inflation not guaranteed? Shocking article--Shostack

Unread postby frankthetank » Wed 15 Oct 2008, 23:17:33

Cube-

Is Joel Trout still calling for DOW 13000?

Whatever it is, when i think "socialism", i think free healthcare...

I need me some of that :)
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Re: Inflation not guaranteed? Shocking article--Shostack

Unread postby mefistofeles » Wed 15 Oct 2008, 23:29:00

Glancing over the article I think its completely irrelevant. Why? The US economy today is not the US economy of 1929.

First of all the US is no longer on the gold standard. Nor is any other country in the world. Although I can't prove it I think the gold standard was probably a moderating force in terms of money growth.

Second of all the US is highly dependant upon the system of international trade, back in 1929 the US was a self sufficient country. Now things are very different. If the system of international trade/finance collapses the US too, we lose 60% of our crude oil supply.

1929 was a very different time and it really pisses me off to no end that the economists could even compare USA crica 2009 and USA Circa 1929.

The US economy is different now and the rules and constraints in that era don't exist in this one: mainly the gold standard.

Also the US simply can't go Smoot Hawley on its major trading partners it wants to survive for more than three months.

History is nice but I sometimes feel that these people should get their facts straight first. The US of 2009 is NOT THE US OF 1929.
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Re: Inflation not guaranteed? Shocking article--Shostack

Unread postby eastbay » Wed 15 Oct 2008, 23:35:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('frankthetank', 'C')ube-

Is Joel Trout still calling for DOW 13000?

Whatever it is, when i think "socialism", i think free healthcare...

I need me some of that :)



I think of free roads and free schools too. State control of lending and banking as well.

All right out of the Communist Manifesto.
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Re: Inflation not guaranteed? Shocking article--Shostack

Unread postby oiless » Wed 15 Oct 2008, 23:47:21

Socialism is not the word you're looking for.
Fascism is the word you are searching for.
As an outsider looking in I hear the "socialism" word a lot. I think everyone except Americans can see that this isn't it.
It seems that Americans see socialism/communism behind every bush, I think it must be a national pass time.
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Re: Inflation not guaranteed? Shocking article--Shostack

Unread postby threadbear » Wed 15 Oct 2008, 23:58:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mattduke', 'I')t is very helpful to the printers of money that there is a prevailing opinion that money will be scarce.


You might want to read the article before you criticize it. What he says in the article is that money scarcity isn't the cause of depressions. What causes it is preceding periods of lax lending. Lax lending fosters non-productive business activities and causes people to deplete their real wealth. When the non-productive activities inevitability decline in profitability, lending contracts and followed by a contraction of the whole economy. The only thing that can pull the economy out of the depression is when real savings reaccumulate.

Basically the idea is that it doesn't really matter how much money is floating around. If people don't have real savings, they'll stop lending. If business aren't producing real economic benefit they will lose profitability. If business aren't profitable or people aren't credit worthy, they will eventually not be able to get loans. The fed can prevent depressions by avoiding lax monetary policy, but once it starts, it just has to runs it's course.

That fits really well with what we're seeing. Central Banks are spewing money in every direction. Still lending is really tight and the economy continues to contract.


It seems like it's not enough to bail out banks, if they are hesitant to make loans. Sooner or later govt will have to become the backer of cartels through the creation of massive make work programs, to get guaranteed income directly back into the pockets of more borrowers. The banks would then feel free to lend again. This is usually referred to as a war effort, but it's clear that the multinational approach to solving the economic crisis, might actually interfere with warfare as the solution. The make work programs would have to be framed as a War against Economic Collapse, or a War Against Dependance on Foreign Oil.


MATT DUKE--Do you think that the US would have gone through a govt induced inflation if WW2 hadn't pulled the US out of Depression in the thirties?

BTW--During WW2 those with very high incomes were paying over 80% in income tax.
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Re: Inflation not guaranteed? Shocking article--Shostack

Unread postby americandream » Thu 16 Oct 2008, 00:02:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mattduke', 'I')t is very helpful to the printers of money that there is a prevailing opinion that money will be scarce.


You might want to read the article before you criticize it. What he says in the article is that money scarcity isn't the cause of depressions. What causes it is preceding periods of lax lending. Lax lending fosters non-productive business activities and causes people to deplete their real wealth. When the non-productive activities inevitability decline in profitability, lending contracts and followed by a contraction of the whole economy. The only thing that can pull the economy out of the depression is when real savings reaccumulate.

Basically the idea is that it doesn't really matter how much money is floating around. If people don't have real savings, they'll stop lending. If business aren't producing real economic benefit they will lose profitability. If business aren't profitable or people aren't credit worthy, they will eventually not be able to get loans. The fed can prevent depressions by avoiding lax monetary policy, but once it starts, it just has to runs it's course.

That fits really well with what we're seeing. Central Banks are spewing money in every direction. Still lending is really tight and the economy continues to contract.


It seems like it's not enough to bail out banks, if they are hesitant to make loans. Sooner or later govt will have to become the backer of cartels through the creation of massive make work programs, to get guaranteed income directly back into the pockets of more borrowers. The banks would then feel free to lend again. This is usually referred to as a war effort, but it's clear that the multinational approach to solving the economic crisis, might actually interfere with warfare as the solution. The make work programs would have to be framed as a War against Economic Collapse, or a War Against Dependance on Foreign Oil.


MATT DUKE--Do you think that the US would have gone through a govt induced inflation if WW2 hadn't pulled the US out of Depression in the thirties?

BTW--During WW2 those with very high incomes were paying over 80% in income tax.


I'm a tax lawyer and let me tell you that no one, and I mean no significant earner of income from significant invested capital pays or has ever paid much if any tax. Thats an urban legend.
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Re: Inflation not guaranteed? Shocking article--Shostack

Unread postby cube » Thu 16 Oct 2008, 00:46:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('frankthetank', 'C')ube-

Is Joel Trout still calling for DOW 13000?
You know what's funny? Right after I asked Joel Trout permission to quote him in my sig, the stock market took a nosedive for a week!
I haven't asked him for a 2nd opinion yet.
Maybe I'll wait till the end of the year.
BTW he has a quote of me:

cube says - Dow 4,000 in 2 years. :)
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Re: Inflation not guaranteed? Shocking article--Shostack

Unread postby cube » Thu 16 Oct 2008, 01:19:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '.')..
I'm a tax lawyer and let me tell you that no one, and I mean no significant earner of income from significant invested capital pays or has ever paid much if any tax. Thats an urban legend.
Rich people pay capital gains taxes, NOT income tax.
It would be impossible to ever become super rich if you had to pay 35% tax every year. aka income tax

for example:
Suppose you made a deal with the devil and you now have the power to become an uber investor who can double his money every year guarantee.
You start off with $20,000 -> double every year -> 40K, 80K, 160K.......in ten years you would have $10 Million dollars assuming you paid NO income taxes.
No imagine if you had to pay 35% income tax every year on your profits.
After taxes you'll have a smaller amount of money to invest.
$20,000 -> 33K, 54.45K, 89.84K....
now compound this out ten years and your net worth is less than 20%.
//
Anybody want to guess the difference compounded annually for 20 years?
Paying taxes yearly would leave you with a total net worth of less than 3% than if you didn't have to pay taxes.
That is the power of compounding interest. :twisted:
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Re: Inflation not guaranteed? Shocking article--Shostack

Unread postby threadbear » Thu 16 Oct 2008, 12:44:22

You're telling me that nobody earns an income of 400,000+ in the US, Cube? If deflation took hold and everything dropped in price, and that individual managed an income of 400,000, even if he took a, say, 60% or 70% tax hit, he'd still come out ahead.

Capital gains obviously have to be taxed and taxed hard, particularly in a deflationary environment. I expect to be directly hit by that, but better me than some working stiff.
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Re: Inflation not guaranteed? Shocking article--Shostack

Unread postby cube » Thu 16 Oct 2008, 21:49:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'Y')ou're telling me that nobody earns an income of 400,000+ in the US, Cube? If deflation took hold and everything dropped in price, and that individual managed an income of 400,000, even if he took a, say, 60% or 70% tax hit, he'd still come out ahead.

Capital gains obviously have to be taxed and taxed hard, particularly in a deflationary environment. I expect to be directly hit by that, but better me than some working stiff.
threadbear let me be blunt.
I'm an impatient man and do NOT like explaining myself a 2nd time.
I'm tempted to simply just walk away.
however.....
ONLY because I consider you one of the more respectable members on this forum I'm going to extend a special privilege to you by explaining a 2nd time.

this is how the rich became rich
The rich make their money from capital gains NOT income.
Capital gains is only taxed once, after the assets are sold.
If you held onto an asset for say 20 years and then sold it, you pay taxes only once. You do NOT pay taxes every year unlike a regular income. This is highly advantageous because it allows your investment to grow tax free every year.
Recall what I said about the power of compounding.

Suppose you're a CEO and you started your own company.
You start off with 20 million shares of stock which initially are valued at zero. After 20 years of building up your company the stock price is now $50 / share. Your net worth is $50 X 20million shares == $1 Billion. (before tax)
You decide to retire and sell all your stock.
The Long term capital gains rate is 28% so that's $280million in taxes.
$1B - $280M == $720 M your net worth after taxes.

Of course as a CEO you will also be paid a regular salary say $150,000 / year which will be taxed just like everyone else (every year). Have you ever wondered how it is physically possible for CEO's to *officially* make only $150,000 / year but their net worth is in the Billions? Now you know why.
Probably the most infamous example of this is Steve Jobs who's *official* salary is only $1

The next time you hear some bleeding heart liberal argue we should raise *income taxes* to "soak the rich" you can roll your eyes and safely assume they don't know sh!t from sherlock. :roll:
In conclusion:
The rich make their money from capital gains NOT income.
Therefore the biggest tax a rich person will ever pay is capital gains taxes NOT income taxes.
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Re: Inflation not guaranteed? Shocking article--Shostack

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Thu 16 Oct 2008, 22:05:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'T')he rich make their money from capital gains NOT income.
Therefore the biggest tax a rich person will ever pay is capital gains taxes NOT income taxes.


That's absolutely true and the capital gains tax is obscenely low, in large part because it's exempt from the 16% FICA tax. A self employed person making less than $8k per year would pay about the same tax rate (26%) on self employment income as capital gains tax. Someone making $100K per year would pay 44% on self employment income and 28% on capital gains.
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Re: Inflation not guaranteed? Shocking article--Shostack

Unread postby MrBill » Fri 17 Oct 2008, 06:23:32

Threadbear I have been trying to write about the real causes of this credit crisis now for sometime. This research from Standard Bank focuses on my own concerns that the heart of the credit crisis lies in excessive money supply growth and aggressive credit expansion that has been made possible by governments running large debts and budget deficits as well as central banks that would not allow their home currencies to appreciate, so they instead sterilized those export receipts and re-invested that currency back into global capital markets. This is the true cause of the current crisis of which home loans and subprime were just the tipping point.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')"Policymakers are like fire-fighters in the midst of a rampant forest fire. They are trying to put out fires in toxic mortgage assets, fires in interbank lending, fires in emerging markets and fires elsewhere. Just as one seems to come under control another one sparks into life. But who lit the blue touch paper?

Fed Chairman Bernanke gave his thoughts on this on Wednesday. He said that "Large inflows of capital into the US and other countries stimulated a reaching for yield, an under-pricing of risk, excessive leverage, and the development of complex and opaque financial instruments that seemed to work well during the credit boom but have shown to be fragile under stress". We think this is pretty accurate. It is pretty accurate because Bernanke stressed the role of capital flows as well as financial market excesses. He suggests that the financial market community took the liquidity that was on offer from capital inflows and overreached.

It also hints that financial institutions could not have embarked on such a ruinous spree without the liquidity in the first place. Whatever the merits of this argument we believe that it has implications for the currency market, specifically the renminbi. It is our view that this surge in capital exports to the US (and other countries) are a consequence of the dollar slide between 2002 and 2008. This slide has been resisted by many countries, including China. The consequence of this has been phenomenal reserve growth among the central banks (see figure 1). These reserves have to be invested somewhere and many found their way into the Treasury market, which loweredyields and boosted global liquidity.
source: research@standardbank.com

I compare governments attempts to re-inflate markets at the moment to hypovolumic shock. If you have internal hemorrhaging the problem is not a lack of blood. It is that it is pooling in areas of the body where it is not needed, and may even be harmful, while those areas of the body that desperately need it are not getting that oxygenated blood flow. Eventually it leads to hypovolumic shock that can further lead to cardiac arrest. Neither epinephrine nor ventricular fibrillation alone can save the patient much less ensure recovery until you also treat the internal hemorrhaging. If you just treat the symptoms the patient is lost.

Here I am trying to put the 'massive' $3.2 trillion liquidity infusion into perspective. I am sorry I did not have all the facts and figures at hand, so I used only stock market losses as a proxy. The loss of wealth, and the amount of debt borrowed against that paper wealth, are of course much larger. I just did not have the numbers.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'J')PM CEO says, "If you're not fearful, you're crazy!"

Sometimes I lose track of all the links, but off the top of my head before this 'bounce' worldwide equity markets had erased some $25 trillion in wealth. Some, but not all of that paper wealth, has been used as collateral, in Russia for example, to borrow additional funds to either re-invest in the stock market or in assets such as real-esate.

Now that the equity market is down, it might be a double-whammy (a technical term) or simply be requiring further margin calls - most likely in cash given the size of the drop - that those investor may or may not be in a position to meet. If not, then they lose their collateral. It will be sold to repay the loan. So the investor takes a market loss, a loan loss, and in the end loses their collateral as well. They are a lot poorer today than, say, two months ago.

That is only equity markets. The $25 trillion does not include real-estate losses or other physical assets. Many of them have gone down in value as well. The merely wealthy may have seen 30-percent of their networth disappear this year. They are feeling decidely less optimisitic about the future, so are still moving into such assets as cash and high grade government bonds. Some too late, but for them it is all about protecting the bottom-line not looking at the upside. It may not be the right investment logic for those still hoping to make a fortune, but for those that have a fortune can you really blame them?

blah, Blah, BLAH! Okay our bottom-line. Do the bailouts - as sizeable as they are - much, much less than the $25 trillion loss in wealth as represented by equity alone - outsize the magnitude of the losses both real and on paper? The losses probably by a factor of ten to one. The bailouts might add-up to just 10-percent of the total loss of wealth year to date. And the real economy is still weakening, so those losses are no where near from over.

The question is not so much about will the US dollar survive as the world's reserve currency, but what will the world's financial architecture look like after this crisis is finished? Recent cracks in the ERM make me doubt the euro's role as well as those such as Sterling's?

The measures taken so far may be too little, too late, but really if there are other plans on the table I would sure like to hear them? Short of governments buying every asset, and guaranteeing every liability, this is a momumental round of deleveraging risk. That is going to affect the value of every asset. That process is still well underway. We may not even be halfway there, yet? A time-line in such a crisis is usually more optimistic than not. But a three year base case scenario is certainly not too wide of the mark? 2010?Unless this time things just get worse?

Source: Trader's Corner

I believe the conclusion is that we will have deleveraging, disinflation and deflation in all asset prices up until that time where there is capitulation in all financial markets, and possibily a severe recession cum depression in the global economy. Only then if governments continue to flood the market with liquidity will inflation (or hyper-inflation) then truly become The Problem.

Although one has to make the distinction between US dollar devaluation and inflation. The USA can obviously make their own currency worthless, while not being able to address falling global asset prices due to a lack of demand and/or ability to pay in some other foreign currency. And as always, I have to stress that no asset, not even gold, has a fixed value. They all change in value relative to one another based on scarcity and demand. The flipside of demand is the ability to pay.
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Re: Inflation not guaranteed? Shocking article--Shostack

Unread postby threadbear » Sat 18 Oct 2008, 16:59:29

I don't disagree with you, Mr. Bill. I just think a lot of the past problems could be partially offset by targeting the people who made out like bandits, in the FIRE economy in the last few years. They should pay massive fines for fraud AND huge capital gains tax to rectify the situation. I would also make them repatriate their wealth from outside of the country and institute capital flight rules to prevent them from taking off with it. Then I'd hang them. :lol: Other countries do it, so can the U.S.
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Re: Inflation not guaranteed? Shocking article--Shostack

Unread postby skeptik » Sat 18 Oct 2008, 17:20:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '[')b]Capitalism - simply means capital is owned by individuals. There is both the rich and poor. That will never change.


Exactly. And when the government starts buying up businesses, that's called socialism.


Back to the future. The USA ends up with a European style 'Mixed Economy' as the UK also had pre Margaret Thatcher. Large chunks of the economy owned by the govt, but operating within a capitalist framework. Not exactly pure communism or capitalism, but a halfway house.

Heres somebody else who gets it - a 92 year old 'reformed' Friedmanite.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122428279231046053.html
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Re: Inflation not guaranteed? Shocking article--Shostack

Unread postby skeptik » Sat 18 Oct 2008, 17:27:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', ' ') I would also make them repatriate their wealth from outside of the country and institute capital flight rules to prevent them from taking off with it. Then I'd hang them. :lol: Other countries do it, so can the U.S.


Sounds like a job for the MARINES. Forget about Iran. Just invade all the tax havens, open up the books and locate all the evil dooers who have been siphoning trillions from the 'real' US economy over the last 30 years... Then grab the loot and wire it back to the US Treasury.

On the way out the authorities get a choice - you play by the rules from now on or everything goes up in a blaze of Thermite RIGHT NOW.

:wink: - I'm half serious...
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