[benzoil]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('burtonridr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('benzoil', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('burtonridr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('benzoil', 'I') guess what I'm after is a plan where we shift all that corn ethanol subsidy money into venues that will actually work, rather than just cutting the program to save money.

[CarlosFerreira]

This is the main problem with subsidies, I guess. When a government makes a wrong decision, and gives money away to that project, the development turns there and, soon, you're addicted to it. Then, one fine day, it is clear the thing is unsustainable, and must die. Of course, by then people won't be able to live without it. Soylent green, anyone?

[Novus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('benzoil', 'I')n other words, the envelope of "acceptable" solutions was drawn so as to exclude the solutions most likely to actually work. Sound familiar?

[Plantagenet]

Obama is a big supporter of "big ag" and the ethanol subsidies, and voted for the the big pork bill mandating an huge increase in ethanol production the dems passed through Congress earlier this year.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('benzoil', 'I')'ll buy the food prices bit, but I don't think that the level of oil use is significantly high enough beyond normal ag usage to push oil prices on its own. I don't like ag subsidies (for ethanol or other reasons), but the US dropped wind and solar subsidies in the early 80's and lost any ability to lead in solar and wind technologies after that. If we drop ethanol subsidies right now, might it not have the same effect - discouraging investment in alternative sources of energy? If food prices come down, wouldn't that make local agriculture less competitive?I guess what I'm after is a plan where we shift all that corn ethanol subsidy money into venues that will actually work, rather than just cutting the program to save money.

[TreebeardsUncle]

Good, this should drive out competitors for oil and increase profits for drillers, and servicers.
g

[WetStuff]

Down under we are spoiled for choice.
We have 5 types of fuel -
ULP - standard unleaded petrol RON 89-93 depending on which way the wind blows,
PULP- premium unleaded petrol RON 95-96
UULP- ultra unleaded petrol RON 98-100
E10 - ULP+1o% ethanol RON 91-95
E10P- PULP+10% ethanol RON 96-98
variation is across batch and brand.

Pricing is also a nice spread. E10 1-2 c/l less than ULP; PULP at 6-8c/l above ULP; UULP 8-12c/l above ULP and E10P 1-6c/l above ULP

I have a MY06 subaru forseter. I get consistantly 10-10.5 l/100km on one brand of E10 [95RON]. Trialed over same route per week for 8 months. I switched to PULP of another brand 300m down the road and get, consistantly, 8.2-8.7 l/100km. By buying a better fuel I burn less petrol as a component of the fuel i.e. better than 10% improvement. To cap it off, at $1.50/l I get better km/$ using PULP over E10.
It pays to shop around, and do Km/$ calculations on the petrol portion of your fuel.

[Loki]

I see a lot of silliness around here about ethanol. I haven't noticed any fuel mileage decrease in my truck, certainly nothing approaching the 20%+ that jbrovontf claims (sounds more like a fuel leak---I'd check your hoses). My boat is paddle powered, so no experience there.

Eastbay, any idea how much food is wasted here in the US? Ethanol is a drop in the bucket. It certainly does not bear primary responsibility for food shortages in the Third World. Look more at "free trade" policies that gut the local food industry, corrupt dictatorships and bureaucracies, and especially the growing demand for meat in the US, Europe, and Asia. FerFAL mentions on his blog that some people in Argentina are still starving despite Argentina being one of the biggest food exporters in the world. It ain't because of ethanol, it's because of meat production, i.e., the export of soy and other livestock feed to the First World and China.

Selective outrage, I guess.

[eastbay]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'I') see a lot of silliness around here about ethanol. I haven't noticed any fuel mileage decrease in my truck, certainly nothing approaching the 20%+ that jbrovontf claims (sounds more like a fuel leak---I'd check your hoses). My boat is paddle powered, so no experience there.

Eastbay, any idea how much food is wasted here in the US? Ethanol is a drop in the bucket. It certainly does not bear primary responsibility for food shortages in the Third World. Look more at "free trade" policies that gut the local food industry, corrupt dictatorships and bureaucracies, and especially the growing demand for meat in the US, Europe, and Asia. FerFAL mentions on his blog that some people in Argentina are still starving despite Argentina being one of the biggest food exporters in the world. It ain't because of ethanol, it's because of meat production, i.e., the export of soy and other livestock feed to the First World and China.

Selective outrage, I guess.

[Loki]

I don't see how gasoline is any less morally objectionable than ethanol. The world is burning (literally), yet we continue to burn gasoline obliviously (I'm as guilty as the next guy, though I try to keep my driving under 2500 miles/year).

There is one good reason to gas up in Washington, though---self service. I freaking HATE having to wait for someone else to pump my gas. It's so ridiculous.

[mgibbons19]

Might as well burn up the real gas. The sooner it's gone, the sooner we switch.

[eastbay]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '[')b]I don't see how gasoline is any less morally objectionable than ethanol. The world is burning (literally), yet we continue to burn gasoline obliviously (I'm as guilty as the next guy, though I try to keep my driving under 2500 miles/year).

There is one good reason to gas up in Washington, though---self service. I freaking HATE having to wait for someone else to pump my gas. It's so ridiculous.

[Loki]

I was referring to global climate change, but one could also point out the devastating impact petroleum production has on aquatic ecosystems (the Exxon Valdez was just one of many such disasters around the world), not to mention the fact that petrodollars prop up all sorts of nasty tyrants around the world. I'm not at all convinced that gasoline is more ethical to use than corn-based ethanol, either from an environmental perspective or a social perspective. On the contrary, I think a case could be made for the superiority of corn-based ethanol.

I emphasize corn-based because I think it's pretty clear that corn won't be the feedstock forever. I agree that corn-based ethanol is not a good thing from an environmental perspective (the social impact has been ridiculously overemphasized IMHO), but I think it will help grow the industry to the point where we can use other feedstocks that have a lower environmental impact. Biofuels are a part of the solution for the United States, though probably a fairly small part, certainly nowhere near a 1 to 1 substitution for petrofuels.

As for "burning food," I don't see how this is immoral in and of itself. The starving peoples of the world are not starving for lack of agricultural production, they're starving because of corrupt political and economic systems. Systems, for example, that take food out of the mouths of poor children in Argentina so middle-class Europeans can eat beef everyday. As FerFAL writes in the blog entry I linked to about Argentina: "Yes people STILL starve to death in this country, a country with 44.000.000 inhabitants, that produces food for more than 300.000.000."

That's the harsh reality of it. But many here at PO.com refuse to acknowledge these basic facts (I'm not accusing you of this, Eastbay), primarily because of some silly ideological hatred of vegetarians as far as I can tell. God forbid anybody should point out the social impacts of the average First World diet. I've had this conversation many times before, and rarely does anybody concede these inconvenient facts.

[frankthetank]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')AN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- The recent retreat in corn prices came too late for one of the nation's biggest ethanol producers, as the twin blows of high costs and less credit pushed VeraSun Energy Corp. into bankruptcy.
In a statement late Friday, the Sioux Falls, S.D.-based company said it planned to maintain operations while the company and 24 of its subsidiaries reorganizes. VeraSun (VSE:15.8%) said it expects to reach a deal with lenders on additional financing to fund its operations before a hearing Monday. It also expects to get court approval at this hearing to keep paying employees without interruption

[eastbay]

Great find Frank. This is wonderful news. It made my day!

I hope every last one of the companies turning food into gas goes bankrupt.

This will be one very positive and happy outcome from the current and temporary period of low energy prices.

[sirrom]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he punch line here is obvious: The corn ethanol scam cannot, has not, and will not significantly reduce overall oil use or significantly cut oil imports because it only replaces one segment of the crude-oil barrel. All the talk about "cellulosic ethanol," a substance that, in theory, can be profitably produced in commercial quantities from grass, wood chips, or other biomass, is largely misplaced because, like corn ethanol, it will only supplant gasoline.

[3aidlillahi]

Sorry but no matter how a good a read it is, pretty much everyone here can go into pretty good detail as to why ethanol hasn't worked and never will. This stuff is a few years old for most of us. Nearly everyone, not just here, knows that it's a scam and useless.

[JustaGirl]

Obviously ethanol will never work out on the large scale. But I have to wonder why some agriculture sectors can't use it. Maybe wishful thinking.

[NoahsDove]

I'm not too sure if the person that wrote that article really understand the problem. In the near future, we will be forced to use whatever fuel source we can get. This is not a matter of choice or luxury, we will simply run out of options.

It seems like this is still a major problem with a lot of people in this country: a self-delusion that cheap oil will last for ever. This reality has yet to sink in.

[Plantagenet]

Somebody better tell President-elect Obama that ethanol "will never work out." Obama has consistently supported increases in US ethanol subsidies and production:

------------------------

"U.S. Sen. Barack Obama urged Congress [to support] ethanol, a corn-based fuel additive that he says could create more than 200,000 new jobs and ease the nation's dependance on foreign oil.

The freshman Democrat says higher ethanol production targets should be broken out of a federal energy bill that has repeatedly stalled over disputes about drilling and liability for water supplies contaminated by the gasoline additive MTBE.

Boosting ethanol production has broad, bipartisan congressional support, but has been "held hostage" by other concerns over the energy bill, Obama said.

"Now is the opportunity to get this done-- not only for the future of our farmers, the future of our economy and the future of our environment, but to make our country a place that is independent and innovative enough to control its own energy future," Obama said in a statement after touring an ethanol plant in Pekin."

from the WaPo.