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Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Postby ReverseEngineer » Fri 19 Sep 2008, 06:58:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '
')In order to make this possible, NO person can ever accumulate more than 2 years worth of food and hold it. Anything extra must be distributed out to the population at large.
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I thought each person was suppose to earn their own keep in your new order and if they could not produce their own calories they were suppose to be fed to the bears?


That represents the situation where there is no surplus AT ALL. When there is no surplus, you are Bear Food if you cannot produce.

Once your society HAS a surplus though, it behooves the society to use that surplus to benefit the many,rather than the few. It will run up against the constrictions of the resources though at some point, and at that point you need mechanisms to keep the population in check. The 2 year figure is a benchmark figure to do that.

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Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Postby wisconsin_cur » Fri 19 Sep 2008, 07:16:24

So we eat each other in the 3-4 year drought and the society becomes extinct in the 7 year drought?
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Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Postby ReverseEngineer » Fri 19 Sep 2008, 07:29:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', 'S')o we eat each other in the 3-4 year drought and the society becomes extinct in the 7 year drought?


No, not as long as the society in general is capable of retaining enough for all to sustain all for a 7 year drought. Gotta have a pretty successful society overall to do that though.

Typically in the animal kingdom at least, all the species live year to year. In a situation of resource depletion, we are reduced to a similar situation. Just because we can talk about it online does not mean we have any better ability to manage that problem.

I hope for a time we will be able to live beyond the year to year situation of the animal kngdom, but that is where we are at right now. When we CAN save upwards of 7 years for the society, we will be in a safe situation. That is a LONG ways off though.

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Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Postby wisconsin_cur » Fri 19 Sep 2008, 07:34:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', 'S')o we eat each other in the 3-4 year drought and the society becomes extinct in the 7 year drought?


No, not as long as the society in general is capable of retaining enough for all to sustain all for a 7 year drought. Gotta have a pretty successful society overall to do that though.

Typically in the animal kingdom at least, all the species live year to year. In a situation of resource depletion, we are reduced to a similar situation. Just because we can talk about it online does not mean we have any better ability to manage that problem.

I hope for a time we will be able to live beyond the year to year situation of the animal kngdom, but that is where we are at right now. When we CAN save upwards of 7 years for the society, we will be in a safe situation. That is a LONG ways off though.

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And humanity's darwinian advantage is its ability to plan ahead and hold calories in reserve for off years. Our brains are a part of the animal kingdom too, as much as a zebra's speed or a lions paw. Even if 7 years is a little "pie in the sky" why would we limit our Darwinian place in the ecosystem?
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Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Postby ReverseEngineer » Fri 19 Sep 2008, 07:51:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', 'S')o we eat each other in the 3-4 year drought and the society becomes extinct in the 7 year drought?


No, not as long as the society in general is capable of retaining enough for all to sustain all for a 7 year drought. Gotta have a pretty successful society overall to do that though.

Typically in the animal kingdom at least, all the species live year to year. In a situation of resource depletion, we are reduced to a similar situation. Just because we can talk about it online does not mean we have any better ability to manage that problem.

I hope for a time we will be able to live beyond the year to year situation of the animal kngdom, but that is where we are at right now. When we CAN save upwards of 7 years for the society, we will be in a safe situation. That is a LONG ways off though.

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And humanity's darwinian advantage is its ability to plan ahead and hold calories in reserve for off years. Our brains are a part of the animal kingdom too, as much as a zebra's speed or a lions paw. Even if 7 years is a little "pie in the sky" why would we limit our Darwinian place in the ecosystem?


For precisely the reason that we DO have brains, and need to MANAGE AND REGULATE growth. We KNOW the limitations of the resources, and if we don't use our brains to manage that situation, we are DOOMED. You cannot let a bunch of traders willy nilly bet futures and short stocks and expect you can conserve in a resource depleting world, that is plain ridiculous. They will consume until the last trader gets eaten up, Cannabalism right before our eyes on the financial level right now.

Caitalism was a codification of dog eat dog on the financial level, and now the dogs really ARE eating the dogs there.

REAL dogs however do not eat dogs. If they do, no dogs are left. Dogs are a whole lot smarter than that. Capitalists however are NOT smarter than that. They keep consuming each other until only one is left standing, and one person cannot reproduce. That is the reductionist argument being played out here.

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Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Postby wisconsin_cur » Fri 19 Sep 2008, 08:01:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '
')For precisely the reason that we DO have brains, and need to MANAGE AND REGULATE growth. We KNOW the limitations of the resources, and if we don't use our brains to manage that situation, we are DOOMED. You cannot let a bunch of traders willy nilly bet futures and short stocks and expect you can conserve in a resource depleting world, that is plain ridiculous. They will consume until the last trader gets eaten up, Cannabalism right before our eyes on the financial level right now.

Caitalism was a codification of dog eat dog on the financial level, and now the dogs really ARE eating the dogs there.

REAL dogs however do not eat dogs. If they do, no dogs are left. Dogs are a whole lot smarter than that. Capitalists however are NOT smarter than that. They keep consuming each other until only one is left standing, and one person cannot reproduce. That is the reductionist argument being played out here.

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I was just talking about letting people keep a few years worth of food... I don't know anything about shorting wheat futures or what the culinary choices of canines has to do with it.

So you would rather see a society starve into extinction if a four year drought should come along than see anyone have more than 2 years worth of food?
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Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Postby ReverseEngineer » Fri 19 Sep 2008, 08:24:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '
')I was just talking about letting people keep a few years worth of food... I don't know anything about shorting wheat futures or what the culinary choices of canines has to do with it.

So you would rather see a society starve into extinction if a four year drought should come along than see anyone have more than 2 years worth of food?


As a SOCIETY, to keep 7 years worth of food and fairly distribute it is reasonable. As an INDIVIDUAL, to keep 7 years worth of food while everyone around you STARVES is unreasonable. Not to mention, you won't be able to reprduce if you are the only one left standing, male or female.

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Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Postby mos6507 » Fri 19 Sep 2008, 13:28:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '
')As an INDIVIDUAL, to keep 7 years worth of food while everyone around you STARVES is unreasonable.


Likewise, if you have food and everyone doesn't, and you share it, and it's still insufficient to sustain everybody collecitvely, everyone dies anyway, just slightly delayed. So hoarding has some evolutionary advantages as far as conserving enough energy to ensure the survival of the few in times of shortages rather than none. I will expect many people to misjudge how much is enough to carry them through and suffer as a result of being TOO generous.
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Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Postby ReverseEngineer » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 02:37:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '
')As an INDIVIDUAL, to keep 7 years worth of food while everyone around you STARVES is unreasonable.


Likewise, if you have food and everyone doesn't, and you share it, and it's still insufficient to sustain everybody collecitvely, everyone dies anyway, just slightly delayed. So hoarding has some evolutionary advantages as far as conserving enough energy to ensure the survival of the few in times of shortages rather than none. I will expect many people to misjudge how much is enough to carry them through and suffer as a result of being TOO generous.


The store isn't meant to keep everyone going in pereptuity, only to keep them going until as a group you organize up to produce more food.

If/when the food stops being shipped up here to the grocery stores, unless we can produce enough ourselves, we are all toast anyhow. I won't be near as successful hunting alone as if we work in parties, in fact even the children can be helpful here functioning as drivers of the game toward a kill zone.

How much game is out there, and how fast we have to hunt it down are the limiting factors in this economy. If we have to hunt out ALL the game in one season to feed ourselves and do so, then we follow shortly thereafter on the path to extinction. Unlikely we do so with the population extant up here in the valley right now, because the vast population of the game is actually outside our reach in any given season, most of the game is actually in the Arctic Wildlife Refuge and out in the Yukon territory. The game migrates back in each year after the herd is culled, because food is more plentiful for the migrating animals once the herd is culled in a given area.

You can't survive long term just with a store of food, you have to have a plan to PRODUCE food as well. The subsitence farmers on the board here hope to do this by raising crops on their own land. Hunters like me hope to do it by harvesting what nature provides out in the wilderness.

Absolutely, having some store of food is necessary for long term survival of a society through times of drought and famine. The more the society as a whole can store up, the safer it is. However, simply storing food is not enough, you do need to be able to produce food again at some point to remain viable.

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Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Postby wisconsin_cur » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 02:40:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '
')I was just talking about letting people keep a few years worth of food... I don't know anything about shorting wheat futures or what the culinary choices of canines has to do with it.

So you would rather see a society starve into extinction if a four year drought should come along than see anyone have more than 2 years worth of food?


As a SOCIETY, to keep 7 years worth of food and fairly distribute it is reasonable. As an INDIVIDUAL, to keep 7 years worth of food while everyone around you STARVES is unreasonable. Not to mention, you won't be able to reprduce if you are the only one left standing, male or female.

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So you trust the government or maybe a corporation to keep and protect the "hoard"? If individual families are not doing it, who keeps it?
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Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Postby ReverseEngineer » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 03:06:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '
')
So you trust the government or maybe a corporation to keep and protect the "hoard"? If individual families are not doing it, who keeps it?


I CLEARLY do not trust the Gooberment to protect the hoard, these are the folks currently looting the banks for any remaining wealth. If you have a large amount of money invested in the market or in gold, RIGHT NOW the Gooberment is in the process of confiscating all of it. Why ANYONE would keep a large amount of money in a bank now when every week another bank fails is BEYOND me. Keep enough in there to pay your monthly bills and use your debit card until the ATMS get switched off, but no more.

This is why in the Post Peak Oil world, I do not see society as sustainable growing so large that you need such things as banks. I believe I wrote about what I consider a sustainable Society in terms of size, around 10,000 Human Souls. In such a society, if you figure the typical family unit at 4 with one Head of Household, you come out with 2500 people. Of those folks, given a life expectancy around 60 years, you probably would have no more than 100 surviving Grandparents in a given generation. These are the Chiefs, and they are directly connected by blood to their direct descendents. Its the responsibility of this bunch to meet together in the Tribal Council to determine the distribution of any savings during times of Famine and Drought. If you cannot trust your grandfathers and grandmothers to hold the savings in safe keeping, you cannot obviously survive as a society either.

Society grew too large for its britches when resources were plentiful, and about from the get-go with the development of Agriculture you had large centralization of wealth and Rulers who over time lost touch with the people they governed. periodically with such an organization you have economic busts, and typically the Rulers end up losing their heads. Plenty of dislocation and suffering for all involved here however.

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Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Postby Quinny » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 03:24:41

and these tribal elders, do they still have to hunt etc. and produce their calories?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '
')
So you trust the government or maybe a corporation to keep and protect the "hoard"? If individual families are not doing it, who keeps it?


I CLEARLY do not trust the Gooberment to protect the hoard, these are the folks currently looting the banks for any remaining wealth. If you have a large amount of money invested in the market or in gold, RIGHT NOW the Gooberment is in the process of confiscating all of it. Why ANYONE would keep a large amount of money in a bank now when every week another bank fails is BEYOND me. Keep enough in there to pay your monthly bills and use your debit card until the ATMS get switched off, but no more.

This is why in the Post Peak Oil world, I do not see society as sustainable growing so large that you need such things as banks. I believe I wrote about what I consider a sustainable Society in terms of size, around 10,000 Human Souls. In such a society, if you figure the typical family unit at 4 with one Head of Household, you come out with 2500 people. Of those folks, given a life expectancy around 60 years, you probably would have no more than 100 surviving Grandparents in a given generation. These are the Chiefs, and they are directly connected by blood to their direct descendents. Its the responsibility of this bunch to meet together in the Tribal Council to determine the distribution of any savings during times of Famine and Drought. If you cannot trust your grandfathers and grandmothers to hold the savings in safe keeping, you cannot obviously survive as a society either.

Society grew too large for its britches when resources were plentiful, and about from the get-go with the development of Agriculture you had large centralization of wealth and Rulers who over time lost touch with the people they governed. periodically with such an organization you have economic busts, and typically the Rulers end up losing their heads. Plenty of dislocation and suffering for all involved here however.

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Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Postby mos6507 » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 03:26:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '
')If/when the food stops being shipped up here to the grocery stores, unless we can produce enough ourselves, we are all toast anyhow.


Exactly my point.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '
')The subsitence farmers on the board here hope to do this by raising crops on their own land. Hunters like me hope to do it by harvesting what nature provides out in the wilderness.


You may have made your lot more difficult by being dependent on hunting alone.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '
')you do need to be able to produce food again at some point to remain viable.


And your plan is?
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Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Postby ReverseEngineer » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 03:52:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'a')nd these tribal elders, do they still have to hunt etc. and produce their calories?


No, in every tribal society you do not have just Hunters. You still need domestics who care for the home and for the children, you still need teachers of some sort to educate the children on their role in the society, you still need toolmakers who make and repair the hunting weapons, you still need leaders who resolve disputes within the society. The entire society is not engaged in hunting at any time. Generally only the most fit men between the ages of around 13-30 serve as Hunters for a tribal society. They have to provide enough food for all the other members of such a society. For their children, for the few Elders who survive the diseases that hit all when there is little medical care to speak of beyond Chanting and some herbal remedies.

Your job as an Elder in the society is to educate and to lead. You do not go out and hunt once you are not able to perform this function, but as long as you perform well another function necessary for the survival of the society, you will get your portion of the kill as long as their is enough. In times of famine, some in the society will die, some children will be exposed, some elders will give themselves up to the Bear to leave what remains for their heirs. In those times, only the strongest who can hunt and procreate again are left over.

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Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Postby Quinny » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 03:54:32

So what's the tax rate on the hunters?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'a')nd these tribal elders, do they still have to hunt etc. and produce their calories?


No, in every tribal society you do not have just Hunters. You still need domestics who care for the home and for the children, you still need teachers of some sort to educate the children on their role in the society, you still need toolmakers who make and repair the hunting weapons, you still need leaders who resolve disputes within the society. The entire society is not engaged in hunting at any time. Generally only the most fit men between the ages of around 13-30 serve as Hunters for a tribal society. They have to provide enough food for all the other members of such a society. For their children, for the few Elders who survive the diseases that hit all when there is little medical care to speak of beyond Chanting and some herbal remedies.

Your job as an Elder in the society is to educate and to lead. You do not go out and hunt once you are not able to perform this function, but as long as you perform well another function necessary for the survival of the society, you will get your portion of the kill as long as their is enough. In times of famine, some in the society will die, some children will be exposed, some elders will give themselves up to the Bear to leave what remains for their heirs. In those times, only the strongest who can hunt and procreate again are left over.

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Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Postby ReverseEngineer » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 04:00:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '
')You may have made your lot more difficult by being dependent on hunting alone.


Quite possible. However, given the choice between trying to hold onto a subsistence farm when I think these will be confiscated and taking my chances on hunting in a low population zone, I ended up with the latter as being the choice. Not actually a conscious choice, it really was circumstance that sent me in this direction more than anything else. Now that I am here, I'll make the best of the situation for as long as I can.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '
')you do need to be able to produce food again at some point to remain viable.


And your plan is?[/quote]

In the event we cannot produce enough food? My plan is to die.

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Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Postby ReverseEngineer » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 04:07:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'S')o what's the tax rate on the hunters?


Generally speaking, the Hunters determine the "tax rate", they take the best parts of the meat for themselves, and everyone else gets stuck with the leftovers :-) A succesful hunting society has enough leftovers to feed the domestics, the teachers, the children and the elders. As the society becomes less succesful during times of famine and drought and food stores become exhausted, children are left to die and elders give themselves up to the bear.

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Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Postby Quinny » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 04:53:26

So what's the tax rate on the hunters?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'a')nd these tribal elders, do they still have to hunt etc. and produce their calories?


No, in every tribal society you do not have just Hunters. You still need domestics who care for the home and for the children, you still need teachers of some sort to educate the children on their role in the society, you still need toolmakers who make and repair the hunting weapons, you still need leaders who resolve disputes within the society. The entire society is not engaged in hunting at any time. Generally only the most fit men between the ages of around 13-30 serve as Hunters for a tribal society. They have to provide enough food for all the other members of such a society. For their children, for the few Elders who survive the diseases that hit all when there is little medical care to speak of beyond Chanting and some herbal remedies.

Your job as an Elder in the society is to educate and to lead. You do not go out and hunt once you are not able to perform this function, but as long as you perform well another function necessary for the survival of the society, you will get your portion of the kill as long as their is enough. In times of famine, some in the society will die, some children will be exposed, some elders will give themselves up to the Bear to leave what remains for their heirs. In those times, only the strongest who can hunt and procreate again are left over.

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Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Postby ReverseEngineer » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 04:59:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'S')o what's the tax rate on the hunters?


I answered that in the last post.

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Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Postby wisconsin_cur » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 05:01:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'S')o what's the tax rate on the hunters?


I answered that in the last post.

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If the hunters are the deciders what is the point of the elder council? If the military (the hunters) are really in charge, whats the point? Maybe they will just kill the elders if the elders do not distribute the grain the way they like?
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