[Ferretlover]

The People will have a hard time revolting if they don't have any gas to get around. (See Gas Shortages)

As for the numbers (military vs citizens): Somewhere in one of the threads is a news release about members of the military having to sign statement that they would be willing to shoot Americans-maybe someone remembers where that story is?
It would just take a few bombs dropped on a few major cities (OH, no! Those Terrorists Are Attacking!!) to put the fear of opposing our military into the general population.

[Ludi]

US military turns guns on US citizens historical example

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ferretlover', ' ')Somewhere in one of the threads is a news release about members of the military having to sign statement that they would be willing to shoot Americans...

[Newfie]

Well, there may be bigger fish to fry and there may not. I don't know.

The way I see this playing out is as follows: Lets say that there is a region that needs to be controlled, some big city like NY or DC. Coinidentaill there will be a "terrorist" attack, or significant threat of a terrorist attack.

This attack will get the patriotic juices flowing. A Brigade will be brought in to control the situation. The people will welcome them.

The Brigade is not really there to control "the people", the people generally do what they are told by propoganda. The Brigade is there to control the freethinkers (rabel rousers, nay sayers, anarchist, whatever) who might educate the people.

You just have to control others who would heard the sheeple in a different direction.

[Pops]

I don't know either.

But if this is the kind of thing that concerns a person then I'd suggest one prepare for the ramifications and certainly not broadcast those preps on the internet.

Personally, I can imagine more likely situations which would affect me in a bad way. But those require some effort on my part to prepare for and aren't nearly as interesting to chat about.

Maybe paranoia on a message board is sexy but I can see anyone's' IP with one click, and someone who knows something probably can see all our physical addresses in a pop-up window.


So, I'd posit, all this stuff about Them is just chat room stuff for chatters to chat about.

Anyone who truly believed such stuff certainly wouldn't broadcast to all and sundry.

[threadbear]

It's a crime control measure. I don't think TPTB have much fear of an actual grass roots revolution. But crime could certainly escalate. You have to figure that of the roughly 3 or 4 million thrown immediately out of work, 1 million will not be able to find long term alternatives and will drift into lives of crime.

[SILENTTODD]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', 'T')hats all sounds great but a good bunch of armed guys are nothing more but the sheep . They will bring all those guns themselves to the nearest sheriff/fbi office/police station as soon as they will hear something like " Terror! Terrorist are all around, lurking around to get some weapons! Ouuuhhh! Terror!!! Ouuuhhu!!" then another bunch will bring in weapons to exchange them for gasoline or food, or will relinquish all to a mere threat of incarceration.

[SILENTTODD]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', '
')I sincerely hope you're right, but there's substantial evidence that contradicts you. I cite Greensburg, KS, Ruby Ridge, ID, Waco, TX (Yes, I went there), and the Stanford Prison Experiment evidence that they can and will engage in acts of brutality against anyone, and I further cite the Milgram experiment as evidence that not only will they follow whatever orders are handed down, but the people will accept domination without question, until such a time as their diets fall below approximately 1200 calories per day.

[SILENTTODD]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mesuge', 'H')m, where were these patriots on November 22, 1963 and 9/11 just to pick up a few of the escalating moments towards dictatorship, haven't seen any. In fact these military guys in charge were even promoted afterwards, apparently for good job done. Apologies for the unnamed few heroes who have had a violant car crash on still street or committed suicide with several different guns simultaneously while shaving.

[SILENTTODD]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Arsenal', 'O')ne individual or compound vs the Army would fail. If the Army tried to control the whole USA, it would fail dramatically. It's just a law of numbers. For example.

300 Million Americans
~65 Million are armed

Now most of those 65 million have multiple firearms so if they spread it around then we are looking at 100 Million to fight an occupation. Granted, not everyone would fight but still.

So one guy is sitting there with his .308 and pops 1.. ONE soldier and then is promptly killed.

99,999,999 Million gun owners left.
499,999 Soldiers left

How long until the Army can't sustain those number. Don't quibble about the numbers but just get this. When there is a smaller, better trained, better equipped force the only advantage they have is surprise and shock/awe. Eventually they have to walk the streets where everyone can see them. Occupation with our own armed forces will not happen without disarming the public first.


Arsenal

[Quinny]

But this assumes Unity of purposes among the masses, in reality they'd be turning their guns against each other.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SILENTTODD', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Arsenal', 'O')ne individual or compound vs the Army would fail. If the Army tried to control the whole USA, it would fail dramatically. It's just a law of numbers. For example.

300 Million Americans
~65 Million are armed

Now most of those 65 million have multiple firearms so if they spread it around then we are looking at 100 Million to fight an occupation. Granted, not everyone would fight but still.

So one guy is sitting there with his .308 and pops 1.. ONE soldier and then is promptly killed.

99,999,999 Million gun owners left.
499,999 Soldiers left

How long until the Army can't sustain those number. Don't quibble about the numbers but just get this. When there is a smaller, better trained, better equipped force the only advantage they have is surprise and shock/awe. Eventually they have to walk the streets where everyone can see them. Occupation with our own armed forces will not happen without disarming the public first.


Arsenal

[ReverseEngineer]

In the Battle of the Many versus the Few, the Few ALWAYS lose long term, though short term the Few can create devastating losses among the Many. Remember the 300. 300 very well armed and well trained men were able to decimate a force of more than 10,000 simply by having better weapons and holding the high ground.

Long term however, the society of the 300 collapsed. Your society cannot succeed if it impoverishes many to the benefit of the few. Eventually, the impoverishment becomes so great that it becomes a better choice to fight than to willingly succumb to death. Such gorups self-organize, at the beginning its pure anarchy and the Few hold the advantage. But the Many just keep on coming, and they get organized. Leaders emerge, some Fascists, some Communists but they ALWAYS emerge. In the past the fighting brought down the population sufficiently and created enough demand destruction that the societies could once again start to rebuild, under some for of organization. Not this time.

This time, there is not enough resource left to rebuild such societies, they will shrink down locally until some sustainable level is reached in a given area. It HAS to go that way, the only other option here is species extinction by some form, either through enviromental degradation or thermonuclear war. It wll be a long time before the nation state redevelops, if it ever does.

Reverse Engineer

[Quinny]

I think it would take a really organised revolution for the many individual groups to take on the established army.

The evidence I is that most people see defense as an individualistic thing and aren't looking at a common goal.

I personally cannot see the 'many' dispersed groups of individuals or factions defeatng the US army no matter what the odds.

The Army would control supply & communication lines and so you'd have a well fueled equipped army v under resourced populace. The factions/gangs would be at each others throats whilst the rest of population would probably view them as 'troublemakers' and support our boys/troops, till they themselves became the 'troublemakers'.

Leaders wouldn't need to emerge they are already there, running the show.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'I')n the Battle of the Many versus the Few, the Few ALWAYS lose long term, though short term the Few can create devastating losses among the Many. Remember the 300. 300 very well armed and well trained men were able to decimate a force of more than 10,000 simply by having better weapons and holding the high ground.

Long term however, the society of the 300 collapsed. Your society cannot succeed if it impoverishes many to the benefit of the few. Eventually, the impoverishment becomes so great that it becomes a better choice to fight than to willingly succumb to death. Such gorups self-organize, at the beginning its pure anarchy and the Few hold the advantage. But the Many just keep on coming, and they get organized. Leaders emerge, some Fascists, some Communists but they ALWAYS emerge. In the past the fighting brought down the population sufficiently and created enough demand destruction that the societies could once again start to rebuild, under some for of organization. Not this time.

This time, there is not enough resource left to rebuild such societies, they will shrink down locally until some sustainable level is reached in a given area. It HAS to go that way, the only other option here is species extinction by some form, either through enviromental degradation or thermonuclear war. It wll be a long time before the nation state redevelops, if it ever does.

Reverse Engineer

[ReverseEngineer]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'I') think it would take a really organised revolution for the many individual groups to take on the established army.

[Quinny]

but..

I personally think PO changes that, we're not just in a financial meltdown, but a cataclysmic change in society. The first stage will be rationing of oils where it's only to be used for 'essential' travel/industries/organisations. Which organisation will be top of the list? You're guess is as good as mine, but I bet we come to the same answer anywhere. How about a few candidates..

Medical
Food Production
Education
Finance
Entertainment
Energy supplies
Police
Military

can't see it being the last two can you

[ReverseEngineer]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'b')ut.. I personally think PO changes that, we're not just in a financial meltdown, but a cataclysmic change in society. The first stage will be rationing of oils where it's only to be used for 'essential' travel/industries/organisations. Which organisation will be top of the list? You're guess is as good as mine, but I bet we come to the same answer anywhere. How about a few candidates:
Medical, Food Production, Education, Finance , Entertainment, Energy supplies, Police, Military. can't see it being the last two can you

[TheDude]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SILENTTODD', 'H')mmm, maybe the Army should try this in Iraq. A family member who returned this year from a 15 month deployment told me everybody there has an AK47 and a supply of ammo. Nothing seems to have made these people give up their guns and they have little more than their lives and their families.

[smallpoxgirl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', 'W')hy such measures are considered unacceptable now I couldn't tell you.

[Dreamtwister]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SILENTTODD', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', 'I') sincerely hope you're right, but there's substantial evidence that contradicts you. I cite Greensburg, KS, Ruby Ridge, ID, Waco, TX (Yes, I went there), and the Stanford Prison Experiment evidence that they can and will engage in acts of brutality against anyone, and I further cite the Milgram experiment as evidence that not only will they follow whatever orders are handed down, but the people will accept domination without question, until such a time as their diets fall below approximately 1200 calories per day.

[Pretorian]

I'd like to repeat my old question to those who hope for armed populace to be a pillar for the remnants of American liberties.
You won't have soldiers marching around you. You will see same cop faces as you did before. All the difference will be 1 little car with 2 little men making 5-6 trips every night, ( that should suffice for a city like Nashville, I think ) and sometimes in the morning you'll hear that some redneck down teh road happened to be engaged in terroristic activities, so you won't see him ever again.
What are you going to do?