[Quinny]

Having been the first, but not willing to sell out I can honestly say the people in that line of business were (in general) genuine people who wanted to improve the lives of their constituents.

As for the rest, the only people in our customer base who are 'needed' at the moment are the specialists in legalised robbery!

The rest are on their arses struggling for money.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mrobert', '@')Quinny:

The world will always desperately need:

- politicians
- real-estate agents
- travel agents
- interior design consultants
- lawyers
- stock brokers

etc etc etc

I am considering to become a Peak Oil agent and consultant.
Anyone care to use my services?

[ReverseEngineer]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'M')r Bill

I respect your opinion and the coherent arguments you put forward. On this issue in your previous post you were defending your right to keep the privilege of inheritance and higly paid job, and then go on to point out how population will need to fall to about 5% of what it currently stands at.

Do you really think that if population falls to the levels you suggest that jobs like you currently occupy will exist?

[Madpaddy]

Its only fair that the losses incurred by the irresponsible lending practices of financial institutions should be shared among all. Thats good socialism at work.

And it is just great that the government is keeping the show on the road by effectively nationalising banks and mortgage lenders.

National Socialism - it hasn't gone away you know...

[dohboi]

Sorry to be so late in responding, but back a ways specop said:

"How that would apply to ecological stewardship is through allowing companies to grow."

Hmmm...errrr...

Growth is the problem. A system that encourages endless growth as an inherent good is not compatible with "ecological stewardship." Claiming otherwise is the last word in self-serving rationalization.

We are in multiple historic crises of global proportions. I don't have a clear picture of what a real comprehensive plan to address these crises would be, but they are so deep, I suspect anything effective would require a lot of pain from everyone, especially from those who have the most--which on the global scale would presumably include everyone on this forum.

But we have for so long been so deeply inside the ideology that says that "I should never have to give up anything for anyone." I can't see that almost any of those deeply convinced of this ideology will change.

To say that greed is the problem is kind of bizarre. Greed was the engine for the "magic of the market" when things were going relatively well.

Capitalism is based on and must encourage endless and ever more ruthless greed. You can't say "It's not the system, it's greed." Greed is what the system is based on and what the system must perpetuate.

Those who can see this probably already know it. Those who can't will howl their refusal. Not really much use belaboring it further.

[Iaato]

Growth capitalism is dead, Jim. Let it go. Lee Adler is riled.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')Unlike Roosevelt, who shut down the banks, told the bad ones to go to hell, and let the good ones reopen, and then bailed out the middle class with massive public works projects and social programs, the Bush administration wants to bail out their banker buddies, and stick us with the goddam bill for the rest of our lives. That’s the difference between the 1930s and now. Politicians actually gave a damn about the people, rather than just lining the pockets of their corporate whoremasters."

[Quinny]

Your irony is illuminating.

One of the perpetual myths expounded by the press is that the nasty socialists should leave all these excellent business people alone to run these industries. Steel, Rail, Coal etc were all rescued from collapse rather like finance is being now. This was often done at the begging of 'Capital' it wasn't as promoted by many, theft by the left.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Madpaddy', 'I')ts only fair that the losses incurred by the irresponsible lending practices of financial institutions should be shared among all. Thats good socialism at work.

And it is just great that the government is keeping the show on the road by effectively nationalising banks and mortgage lenders.

National Socialism - it hasn't gone away you know...

[Zardoz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Iaato', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')Unlike Roosevelt, who shut down the banks, told the bad ones to go to hell, and let the good ones reopen, and then bailed out the middle class with massive public works projects and social programs, the Bush administration wants to bail out their banker buddies, and stick us with the goddam bill for the rest of our lives. That’s the difference between the 1930s and now. Politicians actually gave a damn about the people, rather than just lining the pockets of their corporate whoremasters."

[wisconsin_cur]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'L')ife is a game of attrition. Some quit because they cannot hack it. Some leave because they have found something better. I will leave on my own terms.

[ReverseEngineer]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dohboi', 'S')orry to be so late in responding, but back a ways specop said:

"How that would apply to ecological stewardship is through allowing companies to grow."

Hmmm...errrr...

Growth is the problem. A system that encourages endless growth as an inherent good is not compatible with "ecological stewardship." Claiming otherwise is the last word in self-serving rationalization.

We are in multiple historic crises of global proportions. I don't have a clear picture of what a real comprehensive plan to address these crises would be, but they are so deep, I suspect anything effective would require a lot of pain from everyone, especially from those who have the most--which on the global scale would presumably include everyone on this forum.

But we have for so long been so deeply inside the ideology that says that "I should never have to give up anything for anyone." I can't see that almost any of those deeply convinced of this ideology will change.

To say that greed is the problem is kind of bizarre. Greed was the engine for the "magic of the market" when things were going relatively well.

Capitalism is based on and must encourage endless and ever more ruthless greed. You can't say "It's not the system, it's greed." Greed is what the system is based on and what the system must perpetuate.

Those who can see this probably already know it. Those who can't will howl their refusal. Not really much use belaboring it further.

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'M')r Bill

I respect your opinion and the coherent arguments you put forward. On this issue in your previous post you were defending your right to keep the privilege of inheritance and higly paid job, and then go on to point out how population will need to fall to about 5% of what it currently stands at.

Do you really think that if population falls to the levels you suggest that jobs like you currently occupy will exist?



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'A')h, the pastoral lifestyle of the hunter, gatherer and farmer. Teach the young 'uns how to hunt and fish. Reminds me of Robert Browning. So romantic. Now, how to engineer a population decline from 6.7 billion to maybe 300 million? Maybe we can all survive by hunting caribou? Is your PC organic? Made from local roots and shoots? Connected to a bio-internet? Because I assume those that consume modern conveniences are as Evil as those that provide them? ; - ))

Why should the winners - those that have managed to accumulate wealth, that are healthy, that successfully reproduce in a responsible manner, that educate their offspring, that can provide for their future, until such a time that they can provide for themselves sign-up to your plan where not only do they lose - at a stroke - what has taken generations to acquire, but they get zero benefit other than to see their children compete in a no holds bared survival of the fitness (dumbest) lottery?

[MrBill]

RR, I assume you live in Alaska as you hunt caribou and fish for salmon. Am I correct? You think that makes you morally superior to those of us that must make a grimy living by getting our hands dirty in business. But I would just like to point out that you are living in a system, and off a system, that is paid for by grubby little capitalists like myself.

Everything you buy whether it is at Wal-Mart or from the corner store is partially subsidized by mass consumerism. Get used to it. The 'price' you pay for whatever you buy is spread across the whole population. So whether you buy guns and ammo or fishing tackle your purchase is partially subsidized by someone that buys plastic crap from China. It is called economies of size and economies of scale.

You drive, so the 'cost' of your car (or pick-up) is subsidized by everyone else that drives. Or did you think the car company built that automobile especially for you? And on it goes. Public roads. Public power. Your PC is one of millions. It took millions to bring the cost down to the level that you could afford one. The hypocrisy of the Green Movement is not that they are trying to make a difference, but often that they forget that their minimalist lifestyles are in fact subsidized by everyone else's consumption.

You confuse your lifestyle choices with being somehow morally superior when in fact it is just having enough leisure time and living in proximately to where you can hunt and fish. Does that make you better than the factory wage slave living in Asia that has neither much free time nor lives in Alaska?

[ReverseEngineer]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '[') RE: inheritance. I certainly do think that my money that I have earned is my own. It is my right to pass it along to my children, grandchildren, nephews or godson as I see fit. What right do you have to confiscate my wealth? Did you earn it?

[MrBill]

You seem happiest living in 1750 or in a post Mad Max world. I live in the here and now. I try to make the best out of what is.

[ReverseEngineer]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'Y')ou seem happiest living in 1750 or in a post Mad Max world. I live in the here and now. I try to make the best out of what is.

[Quinny]

I apologise if you feel unfairly paraphrased, it wasn't intended. I genuinely thought that was what you meant, and didn't realise that you were merely suggesting that it was RE's point that population would diminish to those levels.

I personally think that the level of 5% is probably a low estimate, but do believe we are in an overshoot situation.

I do have a problem with inheritance, as it can lead to parasitic behaviour and the long term build up of massive inequalitites that have nothing to do with merit.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'M')r Bill

I respect your opinion and the coherent arguments you put forward. On this issue in your previous post you were defending your right to keep the privilege of inheritance and higly paid job, and then go on to point out how population will need to fall to about 5% of what it currently stands at.

Do you really think that if population falls to the levels you suggest that jobs like you currently occupy will exist?



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'A')h, the pastoral lifestyle of the hunter, gatherer and farmer. Teach the young 'uns how to hunt and fish. Reminds me of Robert Browning. So romantic. Now, how to engineer a population decline from 6.7 billion to maybe 300 million? Maybe we can all survive by hunting caribou? Is your PC organic? Made from local roots and shoots? Connected to a bio-internet? Because I assume those that consume modern conveniences are as Evil as those that provide them? ; - ))

Why should the winners - those that have managed to accumulate wealth, that are healthy, that successfully reproduce in a responsible manner, that educate their offspring, that can provide for their future, until such a time that they can provide for themselves sign-up to your plan where not only do they lose - at a stroke - what has taken generations to acquire, but they get zero benefit other than to see their children compete in a no holds bared survival of the fitness (dumbest) lottery?

[wisconsin_cur]

A fool and his money are soon parted...

especially when the money was inherited.

I have avenues open to me by little more than the chance of birth. My paternal great grandparents were highly regarded in the area that I grew up in... All I had to be was a nice young man with that last name and those of my grandparents generation were very kind and generous and taught me many things.

My mother and father passed on a lot of information and cultural learning that is quickly passing away, information and learning that will give me a small leg up in a world of declining energy.

Now my dad did not go to Harvard and I did not receive the preparatory training that helps build the networking and ambition to become the head of Goldman Sachs, but I have my own inheritence and I am satisfied with that.

I find much of envy comes from not appreciating what we truly have because we are distracted by the possessions of others. I would not trade places with anyone... Money is a small thing... character, self-definition, a narrative, those are the true inheritances that we should value.

...although I could put 50k to good use if it were to fall in my lap

[ReverseEngineer]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', '
')I personally think that the level of 5% is probably a low estimate, but do believe we are in an overshoot situation.

I do have a problem with inheritance, as it can lead to parasitic behaviour and the long term build up of massive inequalitites that have nothing to do with merit.

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') do have a problem with inheritance, as it can lead to parasitic behaviour and the long term build up of massive inequalitites that have nothing to do with merit.

[wisconsin_cur]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '
')In order to make this possible, NO person can ever accumulate more than 2 years worth of food and hold it. Anything extra must be distributed out to the population at large.
Reverse Engineer

[ReverseEngineer]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '
')Not everyone can or should go to a Ivy League school. There are plenty of good state schools that offer a first class education. I went to the University of Alberta and got a degree in Agriculture before going to Purdue to get my Masters. I did not get any help from my parents. I worked up to three jobs at a time during the summer - up to 100-hours per week - to pay for my own university. I think I graduated with less than $5K in debt (if that) that I quickly repaid.