Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Reverse Engineer's Explanation of Markets and Investing

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Unread postby jbrovont » Tue 16 Sep 2008, 05:35:22

A hard asset that everyone needs could be something simple, say a 16oz (454g) loaf of bread. $1 = 1 loaf of bread. Simple, straight forward, fixed and truely representative of something of value.

It would be more practical to break this down and move up the production food chain, say to a certain amount of corn, or a square-meter of arable grain producing land, but you get the point.

The currency would represent an asset - notably important it:

1) Has inherent value
2) Is limited
3) Is tangible
4) Is not subject to inflation

Perhapse a starch-Calorie dollar?

Fractional reserve lending? Not a chance - must go. Fractional reserve lending was _devised_ as a way to confiscate and consolidate wealth. It is a weapon of arbitrage, and inevitably guts the economy in which it is practiced. There's no other way to say this: a bank must not have the authority to extract value from money already in circulation, transfer that value to itself, keep the asset and flood the economy with worthless currency.

By making every piece of currency represent a real asset somewhere, you enforce that money supply growth = wealth creation. Essentially, you enforce that services or property provided in trade for currency are the actual value of the currency traded for them. The mechanism of "wealth theft" is thereby short-circuited.

Would this work today? Yes, but the current practice of hoarding and concentrating wealth would quickly break world economies. Corporations and individuals would have to provide services of equal value to their income in the economy in which they engaged in commerce. If they took out more than they put in, the economy would tank. If they put in more than they took out, they would tank.

Why don't we do this? We used to - it was the gold standard. 1 oz = $25. Then "There wasn't enough money," so we upped it to $35. Again, "there wasn't enough money" to keep the economy running, so we dropped it altogether.

There "wasn't enough to go around" because some entities were holding too much currency and not re-injecting it into the economy. Not enough currency = recession/depression as commerce grinds to a halt (no currency - no trade). Since our currency was based on a limited resource (gold) we could print money as fast as we could mine gold. That standard was too limited.

Why? The population engaging in the dollar economy was also growing faster than the money supply. Less currency injection, plus currency hoarding, equals a strangled economy. With no better alternatives, we basically said screw it and printed our way into a booming economy.

Yes, unfortunately, the really ugly reality is that if we pick an inherently limited asset to back our currency, the flip side of a stable currency is a stable population.

Solution? Population control. There's no way around this. Either people take an active role in reducing the speed at which they reproduce so we bring our population to a level that is sustainable by our renewable energy sources (food), or mother nature will step in and force the issue. It will be ugly and horrifying. It will be painful. It will be done. It is inevitable.

Stable currency = stable population + real & limited asset backing.

So how do we implement this? It's actually very simple. We don't need a new dollar, or a banking make over. It's actually so simple, you'll think "duh" or won't believe it.

1) Demand that you be compensated an amount of currency that, based on it's buying power at the moment, represents the value of the thing you create or the service you provide.

2) Only exchange an amount or currency or debt that again, based on it's current value, represents an amount of value comensurate with what you are purchasing.

We keep having the same problem - throughout history, but most recently, just prior to the advent of powerful unions. Unions allowed workers to demand compensation commensurate with the work they provided. This worked for a while, and the economy boomed. Then two things happened: a combination of globalization, and greedy over-powered unions. Having work done in the United States became more expensive than it was "worth" at the time.

Bye jobs. :(

There is a balance. A balance that is maintained by a stable currency, and the demand of _equitable_ trade of labor and goods for that currency.

Paying $300,000 on a loan for a house that's "worth" $100,000 at the time of purchase is the glaring example of why our currency is about to blow. Land values increase slowly, and a portion of that 3-4% everyone throws around gets chewed up by "inflation." More than that, banks price the future value of the property into the interest rate so that the total loan repayments are larger than the future value. What did we do when we took a loan for $300,000? We traded $300,000 for an asset that can only be sold for $100,000. Where did the $200,000 come from? Our future promise to perform some kind of useful activity (work). Where did it go? The bank. Did you get anything for your $200,000 of work? No. You got the priviledge of using someone else's money. As we're seeing with the credit market collapse, that privilege has zero nominal value. You can't eat it, you can't get out of the rain in it, and as several huge banks are struggling to learn: you can't even sell or trade it at a nominal value.

That's why people on this board call people with loans "debt slaves." You've sold your future(work). And what did you get for $200,000 of your future? Nothing. You got owned.
User avatar
jbrovont
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1003
Joined: Fri 16 Jun 2006, 03:00:00

Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Tue 16 Sep 2008, 05:44:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'L')ike you said this is simply capitalism with a re-boot. Once you start trading someones gonna buy a gun.


No doubt there, but actually that is the least of your problems in the reboot. Guns and fighting are a problem, but not as big a problem as manipulation of the money supply and usury. This is where I would make very strict regulation regarding interest rates and actuarial analysis in insurance.

First off, the loaning of money from one person who has a lot of Cals to another could never be done at a rate any greater than a full percentage point BELOW the demonstrated growth in the economy in the prior year. NO leveraging of capital whatsoever would be permitted, cetainly not at a 10:1 ratio. Sustainable growth has to depend on just exactly what is THERE and growth has to be slow and controlled. CLEARLY, derivative products which go more than one level above the actual money used to buy and sell real products are COMPLETELY off the table, they are Weapons of Mass Destruction as Warren Buffet said.

KISS Principle Economics. Keep it SIMPLE, Stupid!

Takes regulation and takes a lot of guts to run a system so absolute, but it removes the Booms and Busts inherent in making big bets on growth and charging usurious interest rates for debt. In other words, its a banking system the Rothschilds and their heirs despised because it does not allow Bankers to make all that much money.

Reverse Engineer
User avatar
ReverseEngineer
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3352
Joined: Wed 16 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Unread postby americandream » Tue 16 Sep 2008, 06:30:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'C')ommunism across the world and the dissolution of the nation state.


Dissolution of the Nation-State yes, Communism no.

Its certainly a redistribution of wealth that currently exists, but thereafter its up to each individual to produce Cals, or perhaps trade for Cals, and said person could accumulate plenty of Cals themselves if they are industrious and a good food producer. Or a good trader. Or have some service or ability others need to produce more Cals.

I am NOT a Communist. I am a Darwinist. What wealth there is in the world has been scarfed up by a lot of very greedy folks who manipullated the market and the money supply basically since as far back as the Rothschilds. A ton of it just went up in SMOKE, and the fires are still burning. All I am doing here is Rebooting, leveling the playing field and giving everyone an even chance to start over. With REAL money, based on a REAL unit of currency, the thermodynamic equivalence of Work & Energy.

Don't accuse me of being a Communist, that is thoroughly incorrect. Read what I write more clearly please.

Reverse Engineer


As long as we acquiesce to the conditioning of our children for the pursuit of self gain above the collective, it should come as no surprise that they mature into the self driven individuals we see. The quest for a communal society based on the needs of the collective over the wants of the individual, in an environment free of irrationalisms such as religion and primeval instinct is not an easy task and is, indeed, the signature of civil society at its highest possible state. The failure to see the potential of the collective on the other hand is simply a symptom of the undeveloped state of man.
americandream
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 8650
Joined: Mon 18 Oct 2004, 03:00:00

Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Unread postby jlw61 » Tue 16 Sep 2008, 06:37:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'C')ommunism across the world and the dissolution of the nation state.


Dissolution of the Nation-State yes, Communism no.

Its certainly a redistribution of wealth that currently exists, but thereafter its up to each individual to produce Cals, or perhaps trade for Cals, and said person could accumulate plenty of Cals themselves if they are industrious and a good food producer. Or a good trader. Or have some service or ability others need to produce more Cals.

I am NOT a Communist. I am a Darwinist. What wealth there is in the world has been scarfed up by a lot of very greedy folks who manipullated the market and the money supply basically since as far back as the Rothschilds. A ton of it just went up in SMOKE, and the fires are still burning. All I am doing here is Rebooting, leveling the playing field and giving everyone an even chance to start over. With REAL money, based on a REAL unit of currency, the thermodynamic equivalence of Work & Energy.

Don't accuse me of being a Communist, that is thoroughly incorrect. Read what I write more clearly please.

Reverse Engineer


First, yes, you are not a communist... the proposal you have seems to be idealogically nuteral and would lend itself to any society. However, it is, as you said, able to be manipulated by the government entities.

There is only one way to get around government interference of money supply.

1) Money is based on something... Calories, metal, etc.
2) Government is pushed back to a unifying force and common defense and not a controling entitiy of the people.
3) People wake up and learn what their rights and responsibilities are and take action to keep themselves free.

So it's a moot subject, because I simply do not see the sheople ever giving up the idea of a government in control.
When somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means. -- Otto Harkaman, Space Viking
User avatar
jlw61
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 623
Joined: Mon 03 Sep 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Sunny Virginia, USA
Top

Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Unread postby americandream » Tue 16 Sep 2008, 07:08:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'C')ommunism across the world and the dissolution of the nation state.


Dissolution of the Nation-State yes, Communism no.

Its certainly a redistribution of wealth that currently exists, but thereafter its up to each individual to produce Cals, or perhaps trade for Cals, and said person could accumulate plenty of Cals themselves if they are industrious and a good food producer. Or a good trader. Or have some service or ability others need to produce more Cals.

I am NOT a Communist. I am a Darwinist. What wealth there is in the world has been scarfed up by a lot of very greedy folks who manipullated the market and the money supply basically since as far back as the Rothschilds. A ton of it just went up in SMOKE, and the fires are still burning. All I am doing here is Rebooting, leveling the playing field and giving everyone an even chance to start over. With REAL money, based on a REAL unit of currency, the thermodynamic equivalence of Work & Energy.

Don't accuse me of being a Communist, that is thoroughly incorrect. Read what I write more clearly please.

Reverse Engineer


First, yes, you are not a communist... the proposal you have seems to be idealogically nuteral and would lend itself to any society. However, it is, as you said, able to be manipulated by the government entities.

There is only one way to get around government interference of money supply.

1) Money is based on something... Calories, metal, etc.
2) Government is pushed back to a unifying force and common defense and not a controling entitiy of the people.
3) People wake up and learn what their rights and responsibilities are and take action to keep themselves free.

So it's a moot subject, because I simply do not see the sheople ever giving up the idea of a government in control.


The human is a creature of culture, ideas and instinct. A complex mix of the self and group. A product of his or her environment and it's priorities, subject however to the economic imperatives brought to bear by his or her environment.

The sheeple as you call them are no more or less the consequence of socialisation within a society driven by its particular economic dynamic. Any shuffling of the form of government within this economic dynamic will not alter the imperatives of that dynamic. The dynamic may be blunted to a degree by the prescriptions of a religion, for example Islam, or a nationalism, such as an apparently benevolent republic, but the results are always the same.

Accumulation of wealth in the hands of a narrow class with the accompanying levers of propaganda. Only by the replacement of the private economy with a public economy can we create the foundations upon which to assemble truly representative forms of government. It's a monumental task as it calls for the suberservience of the self to something greater, the futures of our kith and kin
americandream
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 8650
Joined: Mon 18 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Unread postby mrobert » Tue 16 Sep 2008, 07:44:37

@ReverseEngineer:

You should re-read your postings. What you dream for is actually what is happening. The very same banks and fiat currency manipulations you are complaining about, are failing nicely.

I don't think people will end up in the cold and hungry, because LEH failed. Who lost money there? The were same people that made that money by stealing it. It's just simply leveling out.

As you have stateted, these are entities who engaged in commercial activities and were not offering an amount of product/service equal to what they earn. So there you have it. They are failing.

People will just revert to saving as credits dry up, and they won't pay that $300.000 for a $100.000 house.

------
Let me give you a clear example.
I am about to start building myself a house, on a piece of land my parents own. My father is in the construction business, so he will handle it. When he started telling me the costs, I was shocked. I thought he was on something.

Until he explained me the economics of the big city:
Son, if you buy a condo/house there, you pay:

- a huge premium for the land it's built on
- a fee to the real estate agent
- some fees to the bank involved
- interest on the amount you loan
- a lot of premiums to ensure the profit of everyone involved in this process and so on.

Basically, that $100.000 house for which one pays $300.000 cost around $30.000 to build.

Where did the other $270.000 come from to support the show?
Cheap oil, cheap energy, etc.

Once that's gone, we will get back to a 1:1 trading system.
Big cities based on the leverage above will vanish, and life will continue just like it did, for thousands of years without oil.

Just stay within resonable distance from a big city and you are safe.
Make sure you get a 50" plasma to watch the entire show on it.

QED.
User avatar
mrobert
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 393
Joined: Thu 06 Apr 2006, 03:00:00
Location: Romania

Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Tue 16 Sep 2008, 10:02:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'C')ommunism across the world and the dissolution of the nation state.

What are you smoking, man?
User avatar
EnergyUnlimited
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 7537
Joined: Mon 15 May 2006, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Unread postby coyote » Tue 16 Sep 2008, 11:44:06

Thank you, jbrovont. Quite an interesting post. I've been interested in how a steady-state free market system might work, and you've got some good ideas.
Lord, here comes the flood
We'll say goodbye to flesh and blood
If again the seas are silent in any still alive
It'll be those who gave their island to survive...
User avatar
coyote
News Editor
News Editor
 
Posts: 1979
Joined: Sun 23 Oct 2005, 03:00:00
Location: East of Eden

Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Unread postby RonMN » Tue 16 Sep 2008, 12:04:24

Rather than a commodity "backing" a currency, how about if the commodity WAS the currency?

This has been the case before. Salt, moonshine, and tobacco are 3 items that have been historically used AS CURRENCY. Everybody needs salt in order to survive (& has a helluva shelf life). Eveybody does not need moonshine or tobacco, but are always easily tradable for tangible items. This would also remove the "central power" from the equation because I myself could grow tobacco, distill moonshine or mine salt...giving ME THE PEOPLE the power to increase the currency supply in order to enrich MYSELF.

Just throwing it out there...what do ya think?
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes.
User avatar
RonMN
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2628
Joined: Fri 18 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Minnesota

Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Unread postby TheDude » Tue 16 Sep 2008, 14:23:42

Commodity currencies are too unwieldy, or so the argument goes. We could always emulate the Yap Islanders, who use huge stone discs as currency...

R.E.=If I remember my Anthony Burgess correctly, "Cal" commonly means "feces" in Slavic languages. Perhaps this was intentional? :lol:
Cogito, ergo non satis bibivi
And let me tell you something: I dig your work.
User avatar
TheDude
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 4896
Joined: Thu 06 Apr 2006, 03:00:00
Location: 3 miles NW of Champoeg, Republic of Cascadia

Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Unread postby Snowrunner » Tue 16 Sep 2008, 14:45:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RonMN', 'R')ather than a commodity "backing" a currency, how about if the commodity WAS the currency?


There's nothing really wrong to use "paper" to denote value based on something tangible. That is, as long as it is clear that the commodity it is based on exists.

The problem I see is that any commodity that is used needs to be "unusable", read, gold is fine (you can recover it, even if you build a clock out of it), oil, not so much.

The current situation developed because we abandoned the idea that money is the representation of something real (an abstraction if you want) and started treating it as a resource itself.
User avatar
Snowrunner
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 795
Joined: Wed 24 Aug 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Screwed
Top

Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Unread postby RonMN » Tue 16 Sep 2008, 22:01:40

C'mon folks, the same rules exist now for our currency...

TheDude Wrote:
Commodity currencies are too unwieldy, or so the argument goes.

So is our current currency...

Snowrunner Wrote:
Quote:

There's nothing really wrong to use "paper" to denote value based on something tangible. That is, as long as it is clear that the commodity it is based on exists.

It can't be clearer than giving them ounces/pounds/tons of gold, tobacco, or salt.

Do you know that benjamin franklin secured the money from the french king with kentuky tobacco? tons of it?
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes.
User avatar
RonMN
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2628
Joined: Fri 18 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Minnesota

Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Unread postby mattduke » Tue 16 Sep 2008, 22:14:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RonMN', 'R')ather than a commodity "backing" a currency, how about if the commodity WAS the currency?

We have a winner! That comment alone has made all may time wasted here posting about money worth it.
User avatar
mattduke
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3591
Joined: Fri 28 Oct 2005, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Unread postby idiom » Wed 17 Sep 2008, 00:46:03

Cocaine would work.
The world ends without a tragedy,Time is melting into history
The sky is falling, Voices crying out in desperation
Hear them calling, Everybody, save yourself
User avatar
idiom
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 672
Joined: Mon 23 Aug 2004, 03:00:00
Location: New Zealand

Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Unread postby Snowrunner » Wed 17 Sep 2008, 00:53:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RonMN', 'I')t can't be clearer than giving them ounces/pounds/tons of gold, tobacco, or salt.

Do you know that benjamin franklin secured the money from the french king with kentuky tobacco? tons of it?


Sure, a tangible good exchanged is the most clear statement, but it also limits the way in which people can live / move around.

I understand the pitfalls of an abstraction currency, we see it right now, but all that this indicates to me is that these systems (like everything else) has an expiration date, much like the pig half you'd otherwise have hanging in your living room.
User avatar
Snowrunner
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 795
Joined: Wed 24 Aug 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Screwed
Top

Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Wed 17 Sep 2008, 03:22:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Snowrunner', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RonMN', 'I')t can't be clearer than giving them ounces/pounds/tons of gold, tobacco, or salt.

Do you know that benjamin franklin secured the money from the french king with kentuky tobacco? tons of it?


Sure, a tangible good exchanged is the most clear statement, but it also limits the way in which people can live / move around.

I understand the pitfalls of an abstraction currency, we see it right now, but all that this indicates to me is that these systems (like everything else) has an expiration date, much like the pig half you'd otherwise have hanging in your living room.


Making a commodity DIRECTLY a currency is a reduction to barter. This of course is going to happen in the general economy for real people, outside of what is currently happening to paper wealth at the moment. Whether its Inflation or Deflation, the results of the implosion we are witnessing is that 99.9% of all people currently residing anywhere in the world are in the process of seeing their wealth go up in smoke. Its all being sucked into the Black Hole of the derivatives market, its as close to meaningless now for most people as you could possibly get without everyone acknowledging the truth here, which most folks still aren't even AWARE of. Isn't that sad?

Although I have spoken to friends here IRL about Peak Oil and the need to Prep, they still don't really grasp what a breakdown of the monetary system means, or understand that it is happening in front of them. They are mostly good hard working folks, mostly Republicans who believe in the principles of Capitalism as it has been sold to them, and they are about to have the rug pulled right out from under their feet. These aren't folks who Short Sell on the market and make a Profit off the misery of everyone else, they are folks who put their life savings into GM and AIG stock and believed the lie that it would grow in perpetuity to fund their declining years. In a few hours yesterday, all that was wiped out, they just don't know it or understand it yet. I can't explain it to them either, heck the very literate bunch on this website have plenty of trouble explaining it to EACH OTHER, and you can see from the literal EXPLOSION of threads here and the increasing sarcasm of the posts that opinions vary widely on what CAUSED the problem, how it might have been handled better, and WTF the outcome of all this is going to be.

Anyhow, I digress here from the purpose of this thread because its just about impossible for me to respond to the explosion of all the threads related to the bailout of AIG, the bankruptcy of Lehman, the bailout of F&F, and the absolute stupidity of the Gooberment at all levels. The wealthy are of course TRYING to fleece the Taxpayer, but in terms of real wealth, the taxpayer has nothing left to GIVE. So now they have resorted to a form of economic cannibalism, eating each other up and sucking all paper wealth into one monolithic corporation, but in the end, what is all that paper WORTH?

I'll give you an example here on the real estate market. Some Arab can buy entire subdivisions now for pennies. Great! On paper, he owns all of the suburban homes of California. Exept who can live in those homes to pay him any rent or buy them from him? Who would want to anyhow if they have no power because of no services?

You could pick up the Janesville plant of GM for maybe $100 right now? You just bought a bunch of scrap metal.

If you own a farm outright, if you have the hand tools to make it produce, as long as the laws of the country you live in hold up, you can try to farm it to feed your family. However, as we see all over the world, laws are breaking down, latest victim appears to be the Ukraine, catching up to Bolivia and Venezuela and Nigeria and who knows where else. As we spin down int he US and Canada as well, I just don't see the laws holding up too well. Nobody really OWNS anything anymore, you only own what you can hold onto.

I will be interested to see how long the sham of democracy holds up in the US and Canada. With the dominoes falling as fast as they are in other nations, one can only predict the same outcome in these countries as well and pretty soon it seems.

Impossible to predict the outcome here long term, we have hit the Zero Point. Short term, what you have going is general World Anarchy, and the results of that will not be pretty.

Reverse Engineer
User avatar
ReverseEngineer
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3352
Joined: Wed 16 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Unread postby mattduke » Wed 17 Sep 2008, 08:22:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'M')aking a commodity DIRECTLY a currency is a reduction to barter.

Indirect exchange via the money commodity is not barter.
User avatar
mattduke
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3591
Joined: Fri 28 Oct 2005, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Unread postby MrBill » Wed 17 Sep 2008, 09:03:16

Do you realize how many times you completely contradict yourself? Just because your government would sooner spend $900 billion on bailing out banks and non-bank financial institutions instead of spending that money on, say, alternative energy research and/or sustainable development does not prove (or disprove) that a fiat monetary system or democracy do not work. Look around you at the many nations in this world that do work. Look at the currencies that are holding their value against the US dollar.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Now, clearly a complete fiat monetary system does not work, we gotta base the value of currency on SOMETHING besides the "faith in the Gooberment".

Since ALL currencies EVERYWHERE, and all governments are going to be pulled down into this Black Hole, as a WORLD we have to Reboot and start over. All debts wiped off the books for everyone. We then need a new currency with which to work for Trade purposes. So all the World Leaders need to get together and establish a World Currency Unit, based on the equivalence of Work and Heat in thermodynamics, and call the new currency unit the Calorie.

Then we issue to each person in the world say Cal&1M Calories, enough to get them through the next year and since right NOW the world has enough calories in food to do that in storage and growing somewhere.

Now, long as you produce in some manner more Calories than you eat over the next year, as a human being you are a going concern. You could do that in any number of ways, from directly producing food calories yourself growing them on the land (for which you get a 1:1 Cal& Note), to providing energy calories which are accounted for by subtracting from the caloric energy of a gallon of oil actually needed to produce a calorie of edible foodstuff.


So what's it going to be World Government or Anarchy? If I can exchange 'money' for 'energy' or 'calories' and vice versa then it is a simple matter that 'he who controls energy or calorie production controls the world'. Sort of like it is now, so where is the big innovation? Hmm, I can produce food or energy and sell it for money, so that I can buy assets. Or I can take money and buy food and energy from those that produce it? The value of 'money' of course is directly related to its scarcity relative to say, umm, food, energy and other physical assets. So you say houses are not worth anything? Then try building one without any money. Try buying one without any money and no credit.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '
')I'll give you an example here on the real estate market. Some Arab can buy entire subdivisions now for pennies. Great! On paper, he owns all of the suburban homes of California. Exept who can live in those homes to pay him any rent or buy them from him? Who would want to anyhow if they have no power because of no services?

You could pick up the Janesville plant of GM for maybe $100 right now? You just bought a bunch of scrap metal.

If you own a farm outright, if you have the hand tools to make it produce, as long as the laws of the country you live in hold up, you can try to farm it to feed your family. However, as we see all over the world, laws are breaking down, latest victim appears to be the Ukraine, catching up to Bolivia and Venezuela and Nigeria and who knows where else. As we spin down int he US and Canada as well, I just don't see the laws holding up too well. Nobody really OWNS anything anymore, you only own what you can hold onto.

I will be interested to see how long the sham of democracy holds up in the US and Canada. With the dominoes falling as fast as they are in other nations, one can only predict the same outcome in these countries as well and pretty soon it seems.

Impossible to predict the outcome here long term, we have hit the Zero Point. Short term, what you have going is general World Anarchy, and the results of that will not be pretty.

Reverse Engineer


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o if the tractor and the transport process use up a big part of the oil calories, the oil producer only gets Cal& Notes for the end resulting food calories. While it would still be profitable to have a lot of oil in the ground, it would not be quite so profitable as it is now.

Comparing food calories and calories of energy from fossil fuels is completely useless. You cannot eat fossil fuels. Their only value is to do work.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ince ALL currencies EVERYWHERE, and all governments are going to be pulled down into this Black Hole, as a WORLD we have to Reboot and start over.


Of course, you cannot prove this. Nevermind that Sterling has been around for several hundred years. And often national currencies disappear simply because the nation that backed them also disappeared. Or that a currency as legal tender represents a call on all of a nation's assets including food and energy.

Sham of democracy in Canada? Can you even find Canada on a map? Ever been there? Can you explain our electoral process? Are we running balanced budgets? Is our currency stable? You're right, you do write long posts. I do not doubt that you type fast as you say. The problem is you do not think before you write. And yes when you advocate confiscating other people's wealth you are either a fascist or a communist. If the label fits, wear it!
The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
User avatar
MrBill
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 5630
Joined: Thu 15 Sep 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Eurasia
Top

Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Unread postby MrBill » Wed 17 Sep 2008, 09:10:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mattduke', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'M')aking a commodity DIRECTLY a currency is a reduction to barter.

Indirect exchange via the money commodity is not barter.


According to Mises, 'money' is any liquid asset that serves as a measure of value of other assets. No asset has an absolute value, but changes in value relative to other assets. So commodities such as grain can certainly be used as money. They have a value and they are easily divisible. But then again you can sell grain, trade it for a currency and then use that currency to buy gold as a store of value. Comparing the calorie content of grain to the calorie of content of gold is somewhat useless. You need energy to produce food and to produce gold. But they are by no means substitutes for one another.
The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
User avatar
MrBill
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 5630
Joined: Thu 15 Sep 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Eurasia
Top

Re: Solutions to Global Monetary System Meltdown

Unread postby Specop_007 » Wed 17 Sep 2008, 09:22:45

If we could start over I would have a fiat currency using a fractional banking system.

I would use a paper currency as its the easiest to manufacture and is easily transported. There would be no metals or commodities used as direct currency, nor would the fiat currency be backed up any material items. No representative monies in my system thank you, nor commodities as currency.

Oh wait.....I'd use a system eerily similiar to what we have today.....Except we wouldnt have any of that annoying change.
"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the
Abyss, the Abyss gazes also into you."

Ammo at a gunfight is like bubblegum in grade school: If you havent brought enough for everyone, you're in trouble
User avatar
Specop_007
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 5586
Joined: Thu 12 Aug 2004, 03:00:00

PreviousNext

Return to Economics & Finance

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron