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You're In Charge. What's your plan?

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: You're In Charge. What's your plan?

Postby JustaGirl » Thu 11 Sep 2008, 14:44:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('joelcolorado', 'W')e will rise to the occasion. Man can do what he WILLS to do. You watch. Its only a matter of allocation.

I would agree, but in the US that means relying on our gov. & we've seen how well that works.. so far. :cry:
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Re: You're In Charge. What's your plan?

Postby JustaGirl » Thu 11 Sep 2008, 14:47:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GASMON', 'T')he cost wont be measured in dollars. It will be measured in freedom.

...they may take our lives, but they'll never take... OUR FREEDOM! :razz:
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Re: You're In Charge. What's your plan?

Postby retiredguy » Thu 11 Sep 2008, 22:03:34

Vote Libertarian. Check out the Libertarian platform. It advocates adoption of most of the suggestion many of you have made.

Or continue to vote for one of the major party candidates and insure that we circle the drain even faster.
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Re: You're In Charge. What's your plan?

Postby zeke » Fri 12 Sep 2008, 12:40:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cashmere', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('hardtootell', 'I')'m much more persuasive in person than in writing. With all due respect to Campbell, Hirsch, et al, our spokesmen, for the most part, are geniuses who present the issue in a manner that barely exceeds the emotion required to teach integration by parts.


well, kunstler is pretty impassioned in his delivery, and he is villified for it.

there may be some way to arouse interest in between snore fest and chicken little, but it's like threading a needle with anchor chain.

you basically have to tell people that the fun's over, and that earnest behavior modification is required yesterday, and even if we do everything we need to, many of us won't survive.

That's not the kind of stuff that produces rapt enthusiasm and can-do spirit.

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Re: You're In Charge. What's your plan?

Postby The_Toecutter » Fri 12 Sep 2008, 16:07:46

Here's what I would do:



On energy: End all subsidies to oil, gasoline, electricity, ect. Taxes will be imposed to account for all external costs(eg. environmental, military, ect). This will mean either we start using less profitable to industry but cheaper to consumers renewables, or consumers simply won't be able to consume this commodity and the energy industry bankrupts itself until smaller, less centralized companies fill in the market niche.

On corporate welfare: End it. All of it. No subsidies for any businesses.

On automobiles: Immediate tax on automobiles to account for all externalized costs in the form of pollution, ect. This will drive the costs of innefficient cars up heavily, so much so that consumers won't buy them. If the auto industry builds crappy, anemic, undersized cars that American's don't want in order to make them efficient enough to reduce the taxes, then they will go bankrupt; the government won't be bailing them out this time, so their only solutions will be to build 'hypercars' with good aerodynamics and composite bodies that don't sacrifice performance, size, or comfort, and/or build EVs, and just suck it up and make less profit than they would have in the 1990s(as opposed to no profit today). Smaller industries will be able to enter the mass market if the big automakers go under and they will provide the products that consumers want, but there might be a gap of a year or two. The tax will be used to help fund a national mass transit system.

On mass transit and rail: With subsidies for the trucking industry ended, roads will see far less wear and tear(average 18 wheeler accounts for thousands of times more road wear than a passenger car). Thus the highway budget could have half of its funds diverted to building a trolley-based mass transit network and high speed rail network around the U.S.

On defense: Cut defense spending by 80% and get rid of all overseas bases. America's soldiers will be stationed in America. End the Iraq war.

On money: Abolish the Federal Reserve. The U.S. currency will become a fixed amount.

On Social Security: End it. It's in debt, and current and future generations should not be compelled to support it.

On housing: No bailouts for homeowners OR banks. The banks that currently own much of the land and homes will have their monopolies broken up. Housing prices must be allowed to collapse to 1960s levels when adjusted for inflation, as they should be, so that housing becomes affordable again.

On free trade: Open borders, but employees in the U.S. for any publicly traded incorporated entity must be American citizens; small unincorporated businesses or non-publicly traded private corporations can employ who they please with no worries. Any publicly traded corporation caught knowingly employing illegal aliens will have its assets seized. America must become a small business economy again; publicly traded corporations will be ruthlessly regulated so as to prevent them from growing too large, while regulations on small businesses and small private companies will be relaxed greatly so as to foster incentive among ordinary Americans to participate in commerce without the government breathing down their necks. The open borders is to allow free, unscrutinized travel between nations. End NAFTA, end WTO.

On war on drugs: End it. Dissolve DEA, remove all penalties for recreational drug use, and allow cultivation of any plant currently considered a source of drugs. Industrial hemp will again be a viable alternative as a result too.

On food: All foods containing hormones, pesticide residues, and GMOs must be labeled as containing such. Consumers have a right to know what they are buying so that they can actually choose what products they wish not to consume.

On taxes: End all taxes on wages. All 'income' taxes will be made on capital gains and corporate profit exclusively. If you are an employee and your wages amount to $20,000 a year, you pay no 'income taxes'; if you are a CEO and your wages amount to $2 million a year, you pay no 'income taxes'; if you're an investor leeching off of the hard work of the employees, you will be taxes based on how much you have made; small time investors making less than $100,000 a year(adjust for inflation) from capital gains will have no taxes, and a logarithmic scale will be applied thereafter for those making more; this will prevent ordinary middle class people who invest from being penalized and thus help foster investment from ordinary people while taxing those who make fortunes off of investment without actually having to work.

On deficit spending: Balanced budget amendment to U.S. Constitution.

On big government: No more FBI, no more CIA, no more NSA, no more DEA, no more HSA, among countless other bureaucracies to be gutted...

On Foreign Debt: Cancel all debts held by foreign nations to the IMF and World Bank.

On War on Terror: End it.

On Gun control: No restrictions on what firearms Americans are allowed to own. Convicted felons may own whatever they want once they are out of prison.

On voting: All voting machines must have a verifiable paper trail; former felons cannot lose their right to vote.
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: You're In Charge. What's your plan?

Postby mos6507 » Fri 12 Sep 2008, 16:37:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', '
')On free trade: Open borders,


So much for preserving regional carrying capacity.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', '
')On War on Terror: End it.


How? Capitulation? Since you want our military back at home AND you want to kill the FBI and the CIA, that doesn't leave much in the way of protection. Should we shut down the X-ray machines and send the Flight Marshalls home too while we're at it?

You know what, there were counter-terror operations before 911 and before the neocons took over and people didn't think we were headed for a fascist dictatorship then. I don't see why there can't be a rational approach to anti-terror going forward. Making ourselves completely vulnerable is not rational.
Last edited by mos6507 on Fri 12 Sep 2008, 16:41:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: You're In Charge. What's your plan?

Postby retiredguy » Fri 12 Sep 2008, 16:39:10

Toecutter,

Vote Libertarian. Most of what you want is part of their platform.
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Re: You're In Charge. What's your plan?

Postby The_Toecutter » Fri 12 Sep 2008, 17:00:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o much for preserving regional carrying capacity.


Reduce per capita resource consumption, and carrying capacity goes up. Worldwide, the top 1% currently consume over 30% of available resources, more than the bottom 90%, that bottom 90% which still includes half of the world's middle class.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ow? Capitulation? Since you want our military back at home AND you want to kill the FBI and the CIA, that doesn't leave much in the way of protection.


If this nation were to stop assaulting/manipulating other nations to take their resources, we wouldn't need much in the way of 'protection'. If another nation were to invade us, there is a large proliferation of firearms and many Americans who already consider themselves patriotic. As for 'terrorist' acts, the current 'protection' in place is not doing anything to help, as even college students have demonstrated that weapons can still be smuggled onto airplanes, and also has the bad side effect of reducing civil liberties and wasting taxpayer dollars.

Like it or not, were 'vulnerable' no matter what we do, but with less meddling in other nations' governments, there'd be greatly reduced incentive for people to plot revenge against us if there is nothing to avenge...
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: You're In Charge. What's your plan?

Postby Cashmere » Fri 12 Sep 2008, 17:50:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', 'H')ere's what I would do:




I agree with virtually all of what you propose.
Massive Human Dieoff <b>must</b> occur as a result of Peak Oil. Many more than half will die. It will occur everywhere, including where <b>you</b> live. If you fail to recognize this, then your odds of living move toward the "going to die" group.
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Re: You're In Charge. What's your plan?

Postby cube » Sat 13 Sep 2008, 14:12:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', '
')On free trade: Open borders,

So much for preserving regional carrying capacity.
...
I interpreted the phrase "open borders" to mean the free flow of goods and NOT illegal aliens.
If I was in charge (and believe me there's lots of people who are glad that's not the case):

STOP ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION
I don't give 2 sh!ts if anyone here thinks I'm a racist for saying this but the revolving door we have at the Mexican border needs to be shut down.
Anybody who wants to come here, they must do it legally.

MILITARY
cut 90% of it.
Enough said

END WELFARE
For the rich and also the poor.
The middle class would benefit most from this since they are the ones who pay for welfare but don't receive it.

TRANSPORTATION
Put a tax on gasoline to pay the full operational costs of maintaining the roadways. There is no need for some massive government centralized "planning" agency. The free-market will take care of the rest if people pay full value for what they consume.

HOME OWNERSHIP
end all subsidies for home ownership.
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Re: You're In Charge. What's your plan?

Postby cube » Sat 13 Sep 2008, 14:23:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', '.')..
On mass transit and rail: With subsidies for the trucking industry ended, roads will see far less wear and tear(average 18 wheeler accounts for thousands of times more road wear than a passenger car). Thus the highway budget could have half of its funds diverted to building a trolley-based mass transit network and high speed rail network around the U.S.
...
Why should mass transit receive a subsidy but not trucking?
If you are going to end subsides why not apply it evenly throughout?
Why are you picking favorites?
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Re: You're In Charge. What's your plan?

Postby TreeFarmer » Sat 13 Sep 2008, 23:24:29

If I were king of the USA the first thing I would do would be to abolish all income based taxes and implement the FairTax proposal with its friendly-to-the-poor prebate.

Secondly I would end the war on drugs. Its been going for almost 40 years now and all its done is burn money and ruin lives. All drugs would be legal and government owned and operated clinics would adminsiter the hard stuff to anyone who is addicted for free. This would stop all the murders, theft, prostitution for drugs and drug money. We currently spend 69 billion per year on the war on drugs. Can you imagine how far that would go toward buildign highspeed rail or some windmills?

I would research and implement a comprehensive energy policy for the longterm benefit of the country. Almost certainly a large part would be a study to determine how much of the USA we can electrify and then implement a plan to build windmills and a HVDC system to help disperse the power generated by the windmills. I know it might mean we would need to build 100,000 large windmills but I would build them. As a person familiar with manufacturing and improvements due to modern quality management techniques I expect windmill life to go up dramatically and maintenance needs to decrease dramatically.

I would build "high speed" rail in our most heavily populated areas with its own track that it does not share with freight trains. I would definitely have this rail from say Richmond Virginia (so people coming from the south have a place to get on) all the way to Boston. High speed rail does not have to be 130 mph either, a train system that runs 80mph but is reliable would work very well.

I would stop all but a trickle of immigration. Anyone we let in would have to bring assets or some really desirable skills.

I would allow monuments/plaques with the 10 commandments (and other legal foundations as well) in public buildings. People need to know where our ideas of a legal system come from if nothing else.

Seat belts in cars and motorcycle helmets would no longer be mandatory. This giving up a little freedom for some added protection by the government has got to stop, it is a losing strategy.

Thats enough for now, I'll post what I would do on day 2 later. :)

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Re: You're In Charge. What's your plan?

Postby mos6507 » Sun 14 Sep 2008, 00:10:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', '
')Reduce per capita resource consumption, and carrying capacity goes up.


Population then uses up that extra carrying capacity and the drop off in fossil fuels degrades it further.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', '
')If another nation were to invade us, there is a large proliferation of firearms and many Americans who already consider themselves patriotic.


It's not about invasion. It's about the US becoming like Israel with bombs going off randomly in restaurants and buses.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', '
')As for 'terrorist' acts, the current 'protection' in place is not doing anything to help


Then we should do a better job rather than just shrug our shoulders and stop trying.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', '
')greatly reduced incentive for people to plot revenge against us if there is nothing to avenge...


I think it's a little too late for that. Their grudges also go back all the way to the crusades.
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Re: You're In Charge. What's your plan?

Postby Cashmere » Sun 14 Sep 2008, 04:54:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '
')It's not about invasion. It's about the US becoming like Israel with bombs going off randomly in restaurants and buses.


No it's not. This is a Zionist lie to try to get everybody as frightened as the Israelis. The Israelis stole land in the epicenter of an ethnic group that had been on the land for 1,000 years and that still lives all around the land.

They're going to be under attack forever or until they holocaust their neighbors.

The U.S. has the option of getting out. Get out of the ME, apologize for the mistakes we've made, stop supporting the racist sh-thole of Israel, and the venom against the U.S. drops substantially.

In any event, bombs going off randomly in the U.S. is not an important issue - not enough hatred or enough bombers to really make a difference. Unlike Israel, where there is an unending amount of hatred, caused by the stealing of land, and there is an unlimited supply of bombers.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', '
')greatly reduced incentive for people to plot revenge against us if there is nothing to avenge...


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mos', 'I') think it's a little too late for that. Their grudges also go back all the way to the crusades.


Another Zionist lie that that Israel would love people to believe.

Just like the Jews created their own hell by stealing land and then murdering the residents of that land, the U.S. created ill-will by meddling in the ME and for supporting Israel.

If this was a crusade issue, then England would be the target, not the WTC.

This is a control and meddling issue.

The U.S. should stop supporting Israel and stop meddling in the Middle East.

Do that and the war mongering of Zionists would seem to be exactly what it is . . .

. . . a desperate attempt by a desperate people to get everybody into the "war on terror" because then they would not be so alone.

The world will remember Mos, the part you played.

I sure will.
Massive Human Dieoff <b>must</b> occur as a result of Peak Oil. Many more than half will die. It will occur everywhere, including where <b>you</b> live. If you fail to recognize this, then your odds of living move toward the "going to die" group.
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Re: You're In Charge. What's your plan?

Postby cube » Sun 14 Sep 2008, 09:25:52

I agree with Cashmere on the above post.
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Re: You're In Charge. What's your plan?

Postby mos6507 » Sun 14 Sep 2008, 20:30:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cashmere', '.')..


I unignored you out of curiosity and sure enough, you have nothing useful to add to this debate besides being a flat out apologist for suicide bombers. What a useless piece of trash you are, and Cube is hardly better for agreeing with you.
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Re: You're In Charge. What's your plan?

Postby phaster » Tue 16 Sep 2008, 15:38:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cashmere', 'Y')ou're in charge. You can allocate money in the U.S. any way you want.

I'd like to know 2 things:
1. What's your best-guess Peak Oil time line, meaning, when do you think production decline sets in and we exit this plateau, and what do you see the annual decline rate at?

2. Where do you spend the money.




If I was in charge, the first thing I'd look for is a replacement and blame everyone else for the mess, then with my modest presidential pension I'd milk it for I could by going on a book tour and on occasion I'd lobby congress for funds

as to the question of oil production, well the reason we don't have lower oil prices in the USA is because environmentalists are using the courts to stop drilling off shore and on the continental shelf where there is lots of adiabatic oil given to us by god.

but just before leaving office I'd initiate infrastructure programs, buy building lots of bridiges to nowhere all on land I owned, and I'd give the contracts to construction companies I owned or was an officer of...

figure this plan would cover all the basis, then I'd try is change my name to "John" and marry rich just like John Kerry and John McCain...

Ah one last thing, I'd also try and join the family (watch the following and be amused)


http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/11164
truth is,...

www.ThereIsNoPlanet-B.org
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Re: You're In Charge. What's your plan?

Postby cube » Tue 16 Sep 2008, 22:56:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cashmere', '.')..


I unignored you out of curiosity and sure enough, you have nothing useful to add to this debate besides being a flat out apologist for suicide bombers. What a useless piece of trash you are, and Cube is hardly better for agreeing with you.
If I was born on a land where my parents + grandparents + great grandparents came before me on the exact same land then excuse me if I think I have ownership rights to it. I don't give 2 sh!ts who was there 2,000 years ago or what some "international court" in some distant land has to say about it.
I would defend it by any means necessary.
My support goes to the Palestinians.

BTW after PO hits, the USA will pull the plug on it's support for Israel because we'll be too busy trying to keep our own society from collapsing.
The Jews will most likely leave Israel and the Arabs will once again take control of the area for the next 1,000 years. That's my Nostradamus vision of life after PO. 8)
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Re: You're In Charge. What's your plan?

Postby Cashmere » Tue 16 Sep 2008, 23:22:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cashmere', '.')..


I unignored you out of curiosity and sure enough, you have nothing useful to add to this debate besides being a flat out apologist for suicide bombers. What a useless piece of trash you are, and Cube is hardly better for agreeing with you.


I can't be ignored. You know that. You can look away. You can cover your ears. You can hum to yourself so that the truth of my words ringing in your ears will be temporarily muffled.

But you cannot ignore me.

Apologist for suicide bombers?

This is the way I see it . . .

Israel fights Palestinians with the best and latest high tech weaponry. Tanks, rifles, body armor, whatever.

Are the Palestinians allowed to own Tanks, rifles, body armor, whatever?

What's that?

No?

So they fight back with whatever they can get their hands on, and then they try to do as much damage as possible.

But I'm pretty sure that, if they had their own tanks, rifles, body armor, cluster bombs, jets, and so on, that the attack would begin right now.

My point is, Zionist liars have attempted to make "suicide bomber" a synonym with "cowardly."

As if the Palistinians have a lot of other options, but they only choose suicide bombing because they're evil that way.

There are innocent Palistinians of all ages.

There are no innocent Israelis who are old enough to leave the country.

When Palestinians throw rocks, they are not portrayed as cowards then. The rocks are all the weapons they have.

Why are they not portrayed as cowards then?

Well obviously because it is not cravenness, but rather manifest courage, that propels a person to throw a rock at a soldier wearing body armor and carrying a high powered rifle.

I would not have the courage to pull the cord on a bomb pack on my body.

I think it's immoral to kill innocent children with a bomb pack.

But one thing I know for sure.

People who have nothing, who have been invaded, ethnically cleansed, and treated like animals, who then strap bombs on their bodies to attack the enemies are brave beyond the conception of any person I have met, including myself.
Massive Human Dieoff <b>must</b> occur as a result of Peak Oil. Many more than half will die. It will occur everywhere, including where <b>you</b> live. If you fail to recognize this, then your odds of living move toward the "going to die" group.
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