[maverickdoc]

The paradox of conservation, you conserve some else takes your place. Say you wake up and become super efficient, save $900 per month on your utility bills. Being the rational person you are, you deposit it into the bank, the bank turns around and lends it someone else who starts a business and uses your money to pay for utilities.
(capitalism at its best)

Say Bush decrees that country must conserve or else you will be sent to gitmo.
US instead of using 22 million barrels of oil a day uses 5 (fantasy I know). Price of Oil falls (or the price does not fall), and China just pick up the slack. (Tragedy of the commons)

If you say conservation will make the plateau at the top of the curve longer and we that will buy us more time. Yes, we will develop better drilling and extraction technology, and suck the oil out quicker and cheaper. Which will only make the eventual fall from the top steeper. And harder since more people will be using the resources, al be it less per capita, but more reliance.

The other way is to steal the oil, that too is doomed to failure because it only helps to keep the illusion that every think is a OK. So go on buying your SUV and driving 50 miles to the mall. Problem is oil is peaking so no matter how many countries the US occupies, eventually it will time to pay the piper. And if by some means bush can hold the price of oil down, pumping the hell out of Iraq, or menacing Venezuela, or taking over Iran or market price controls. Like the conservation paradox, the downward slope will only be steeper.

Like I said liberal think we can conserve our way out of this we most certainly cannot! The Conservatives think we can steal out way out of this we most certainly cannot!

[Ludi]

I agree. As long as we have a culture of consumption and growth, we will consume and grow.

[Chuckmak]

this is very unfortunate, but true.

[Jack]

So, what options remain?

1) Innovation - which may or may not magically solve everything.

2) Massive dieoff

Since the chance of an invention solving the problem before things get tight seems small, it appears that we're looking at a dieoff of 4 billion people or so, starting in the next decade or so.

Or is that not the case?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', 'S')o, what options remain? 1) Innovation - which may or may not magically solve everything. 2) Massive dieoff

[NeoPeasant]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('maverickdoc', 'T')he paradox of conservation, you conserve some else takes your place. Say you wake up and become super efficient, save $900 per month on your utility bills. Being the rational person you are, you deposit it into the bank, the bank turns around and lends it someone else who starts a business and uses your money to pay for utilities.
(capitalism at it’s best)

[maverickdoc]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NeoPeasant', 'B')eing the rational person that I am, I realize I can now meet my needs with $900 a month less, so I only work 4 days a week, or I send $900 a month extra to the mortgage company, resulting in a home paid off ten years early. I retire and start doing relocalization/self-sufficiency related volunteer work in my community.

[rerere]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('maverickdoc', 'L')ike I said liberal think we can conserve our way out of this we most certainly cannot!

[cube]

Americans have already made their choice and they have chossen WAR.

While public opinions polls clearly show that "enthuisiam" for "exporting democracy by the tip of a cruise missile" has clearly waned...it hasn't gotten to the point yet that Americans are willing to pull out "Vietnam style".

[aahala]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('maverickdoc', 'T')he paradox of conservation, you conserve some else takes your place. Say you wake up and become super efficient, save $900 per month on your utility bills. Being the rational person you are, you deposit it into the bank, the bank turns around and lends it someone else who starts a business and uses your money to pay for utilities. (capitalism at its best)

[rerere]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'A')mericans have already made their choice and they have chossen WAR.

[rerere]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('aahala', '
')If the $900 is in your checking account, if you write a check, your account
is debited and the ultilties is credited. The lending possible within the banking system has not changed,

[FoxV]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('maverickdoc', ' ')You as a person might be Marginally better off but as a society it will not help

[aahala]

rerere

You're right, changes in the amount of demand deposits can have a
misproportional change in lending, but writing and depositing checks doesn't change total demand deposits. Changes in the form of money - cash or DD, and banking regulations like the reserve requirement is what changes the total bank lending capacity.

[maverickdoc]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FoxV', 'y')a know, I think we have to give up on society as a whole and try to secure our positions for ourselves, our families, and our friends that will listen
of the people I've talked to some say "The sky is not falling Mr Little", some say "don't worry we'll find a solution" and some say "damn, thats too bad, we're screwed" but not one of them has done any researh about PO for themselves. I suspect these responses are common and assume that pretty much the vast majority of the planet will have no idea what hit them.
So I think there is no poison to pick. Tyranny will reign, and conservation will become survival. In the end both will be shoved down our throats

[fossil_fuel]

well, if we're gonna die, i can't think of a better way to do it than to go down protecting our homes and families.

[maverickdoc]

So we are giving up... no more ideas

[Kingcoal]

America is the best hope for a solution to peak oil. The world would do well to provide America with all it needs. Don't believe me? Just look at history. The "Green Revolution" was an American invention, which was exported all over the world. America believes in people, as many people as possible.

We just need a President that can inspire and lead.

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kingcoal', 'A')merica is the best hope for a solution to peak oil. The world would do well to provide America with all it needs. Don't believe me? Just look at history. The "Green Revolution" was an American invention, which was exported all over the world. America believes in people, as many people as possible.

We just need a President that can inspire and lead.

[maverickdoc]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kingcoal', 'A')merica is the best hope for a solution to peak oil. The world would do well to provide America with all it needs. Don't believe me? Just look at history. The "Green Revolution" was an American invention, which was exported all over the world. America believes in people, as many people as possible.

We just need a President that can inspire and lead.