[ReverseEngineer]

With about 50% of US Electric Power supplied by Coal, I am curious as to just how we will run the Caterpillar back hoes and Daywoo front end loaders once we are short on diesel?

I suppose we will employ all the out of work Starbucks Barristas to chip the lignite out by hand, and all the out of work Mortgage Brokers can hump the coal to the Plants on foot?

"You haul Sixteen Tons, whadaya get
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store

Why bother? We could put same OOW Barristas and Mortgage Brokers to gainful employment pedaling exercycles attached to car alternators!

All that being said, while by no means can we continue a profligate use of electricity to chill a Vegas Casino down to 60 degrees on a triple digit Nevada summers day, I certainly think its possible to keep the lights on for quite some time to come. In the near term, you probably see enforced conservation through brownout and blackout periods, but gradually I think we get away from the "grid" concept toward more locally generated electricity. Stirling engines, biomass like sedge grass, plenty of ways to generate electric power without oil.

For myself, I can keep my laptop charged up and run a couple of efficient flourescent bulbs with just the 6 20W solar arrays I have and two deep cycle lead acid marine batteries I keep charged up all the time. I have a few AC Power inverters as well from my trucking years which work just fine for all this stuff. Enough power to run a thermoelectric cooler also, which in the climate up here keeps stuff down at freezing temps right thru the summer. Don't generally use this stuff because the cabin does have electricity and even indoor plumbing!

The grid will go down not because of a lack of fuel, but because of the economics. As more customers abandon their houses, the revenue the big electric companies have starts shrinking. This means they have to lay off all the linemen who maintain those power lines. First decent storm that hits the area, they don't got the workers to go out and re-string the wire.

Not to mention of course the Scavengers yanking down the wires to sell for scrap.

Reverse Engineer

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'W')ith about 50% of US Electric Power supplied by Coal, I am curious as to just how we will run the Caterpillar back hoes and Daywoo front end loaders once we are short on diesel?


Reverse Engineer

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'W')ith about 50% of US Electric Power supplied by Coal, I am curious as to just how we will run the Caterpillar back hoes and Daywoo front end loaders once we are short on diesel?


Reverse Engineer

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '[')
Ever hear of a steam shovel? Seem to recall they built the Panama canal with them.
More seriously most modern construction equipment uses a large hydraulic pump for most functions. these can be turned by electric motors as well as by the present diesel engine just working around the power cable is a PITA. some of the worlds largest shovels were electric powered. Coal to liquid for the things that have to be more mobile I'd say.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '.')..
A disruption is a far cry from a total collapse. Converting mineing equipment to electicty or steam would make jobs for the people producing the parts and doing the conversions. The point is that mine production would not stop but unit costs would rise to cover the cost of conversion plus the differance between the old ERoEI to the new EROEI. Transportation would also never stop. It would just go on by other means but at a different ,assumably higher, costs and cost factors will decide which alternate means wins out.

[zeke]

After reading these comments, I feel that several people would benefit from getting more grounded in the concept that Peak Oil doesn't mean that oil has "run out" or that the world will come to an end, etc.

...and that a disruption in supply doesn't have to be huge to have a huge impact.

but then I realize that it's a pretty frightening concept, and people need to do what they need to do to get through it.


Z

[Roccland]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zeke', 'A')fter reading these comments, I feel that several people would benefit from getting more grounded in the concept that Peak Oil doesn't mean that oil has "run out" or that the world will come to an end, etc.

...and that a disruption in supply doesn't have to be huge to have a huge impact.

but then I realize that it's a pretty frightening concept, and people need to do what they need to do to get through it.


Z

[outcast]

If you put all the people in the world on a scale, and all the ants in the world on another scale, the ants would weigh more. Just something to consider when we talk about overshoot.

[zeke]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('outcast', 'I')f you put all the people in the world on a scale, and all the ants in the world on another scale, the ants would weigh more. Just something to consider when we talk about overshoot.

[Revi]

I think the grid will hold up in some places, but start to get chopped up in others. They will determine where to keep the lights on, and other places will get turned off. Like New Orleans now.

http://entergy-neworleans.com/outages/nola.aspx

Some people will get priority. Others will be in the dark, but they will be relatively powerless.

[zeke]

the thing that's workin on me, and one which makes it hard for us to throw in on solar panels, etc, is that, if the grid is down, or if a substantial portion of it is down, then it doesn't make much sense to have electricity for many things.

like, computers. if you can't get online, or share files with other people, then you and your computer are sort of a little island. So you can power up? so what?

and since so much work these days is computer-dependent, that would seem to be no small concern.

I'd feel more hopeful if we could agree to prioritize computer and network technology to facilitate work without cars; that is, the work that can be done ON computer and not require ppl to commute to do it.


z

[gnm]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zeke', 'l')ike, computers. if you can't get online, or share files with other people, then you and your computer are sort of a little island. So you can power up? so what?

[zeke]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zeke', 'l')ike, computers. if you can't get online, or share files with other people, then you and your computer are sort of a little island. So you can power up? so what?

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roccland', '[')

[vilemerchant]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', ' ')Do you think the dieoff will be uniformly spread across all continents? Will North Americas farmland ,technology, culture or guns help us or hurt us? I for one plan to not participate in the dieoff if I can help it and I think my chances are pretty good.

[vilemerchant]

Double post (FAIL)

[gnm]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zeke', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zeke', 'l')ike, computers. if you can't get online, or share files with other people, then you and your computer are sort of a little island. So you can power up? so what?

[zeke]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vilemerchant', 'T')he guns are a good thing. When Americans really knuckle down and start shooting each other with earnest there will be a tremendous amount of oil demand destruction and population correction of the most wasteful members of humanity.

[Iaato]

The frontier is starting to blink out now. Adak is the posterchild for the rest of the bush communities this winter. Apparently they are browning out, and are down to 11 hours of power generation per day. NPR said today that they may add planes in 3 weeks to start taking folks off the island.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')The City of Adak owns and operates the electrical utility system in Adak. The electricity is produced through the operation of diesel powered generators. On June 30, 2008, the Aleut Corporation received news from the City of Adak that they were nearly out of fuel to operate the City’s diesel power generator. That same day, the City began power rationing by shutting down the power plant for periods of time to conserve fuel for critical activities.

For some time now, Aleut Enterprise, LLC (AE, LLC), a subsidiary of the Aleut Corporation, has been working with the City of Adak in an attempt to avoid this type of situation, with no success. The City of Adak owes AE, LLC a large amount of money for the purchase of their fuel. The Aleut Corporation has a responsibility to over 3500 shareholders and its resources are limited, so simply continuing to extend the City’s credit uncapped and purchasing more fuel with monies that belong to all of our shareholders is not a prudent business decision. However, allowing the residents and businesses to go without power for large blocks of time each day is not acceptable either.

The Aleut Corporation worked out a temporary agreement with the City Manager and elected officials to supply fuel for the power utility for a period of 60 days, ending September 2, 2008. During that time, a long-term solution must be developed and put into action by the City. The Aleut Corporation is fully engaged in the problem and we are exploring several alternatives that may lead to a long-term solution that ensures the City’s ability to generate power and our ability to get paid for fuel while continuing to operate our business interests on Adak.

The residents of Adak have been urged to get involved by assisting the hired and elected City officials in development of a long-term solution to this crisis. The Aleut Corporation is willing to support their efforts and remains flexible, but ultimately it is up to the City officials and residents of Adak to be responsible for the future viability of the community."

[Roccland]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roccland', '
')
A harder concept for most people to get is that we have exceeded our carrying capacity as a species...are currently in overshoot...and a dieoff will result.

That said...

" I realize that it's a pretty frightening concept, and people need to do what they need to do to get through it."