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THE Road & Highway Thread (merged)

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: US Highway Trust Fund runs out of money this month

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 05 Sep 2008, 16:37:20

A good time to repeal the federal gas tax altogether. Let the states raise theirs to what ever level they need and get congress out of the pork bis as far as highway projects go. You could get at least a thirty percent improvement in productivity without federal mandates and ear marks. Declareing them defense highways to build the interstate system in the fiftys was a thin ploy anyway and its about time the supreme court threw it out at last
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Re: US Highway Trust Fund runs out of money this month

Unread postby burtonridr » Fri 05 Sep 2008, 16:41:39

I vote for packed gravel roads, much cheaper :)

We are so freakin spoiled and waste so much money our paved roads here! Why does every single road have to be paved? I can understand freeways because of the rate of speed but neighborhood roads???? Plenty of other countries do just fine without pavement. Besides its boring... to flat and uneventful :lol:
Tired of high gas prices? [smilie=BangHead.gif] Then stop driving to work, duh..... Learn to Work from home

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Re: US Highway Trust Fund runs out of money this month

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Fri 05 Sep 2008, 16:43:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'A') good time to repeal the federal gas tax altogether. Let the states raise theirs to what ever level they need and get congress out of the pork bis as far as highway projects go. You could get at least a thirty percent improvement in productivity without federal mandates and ear marks. Declareing them defense highways to build the interstate system in the fiftys was a thin ploy anyway and its about time the supreme court threw it out at last


+1
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Re: US Highway Trust Fund runs out of money this month

Unread postby RSFB » Fri 05 Sep 2008, 16:43:52

In 2007, the fund was projected to run out by 2009: link
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Re: US Highway Trust Fund runs out of money this month

Unread postby green_achers » Fri 05 Sep 2008, 16:52:49

Great news. Gives me just a little bit of hope that the whole system might, if not collapse, at least contract a lot before too much more damage is done.

Doesn't have anything to do with the fact that the buggers want to build another highway right across the middle of my family's land (we already have two highways, two county roads, and two gas pipelines.) :x :x :x :x
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Re: US Highway Trust Fund runs out of money this month

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Fri 05 Sep 2008, 16:55:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RSFB', 'I')n 2007, the fund was projected to run out by 2009: link

Not a real surprise, considering the official inflation rate (as opposed to the real one).

Another government agency done in by its own numbersmithing. Almost elegant.
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Re: US Highway Trust Fund runs out of money this month

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Fri 05 Sep 2008, 17:05:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', 'T')oll interstates, anyone?

Tolls can't work. If folks ALREADY can't afford to drive because of the cost of the gas, adding the cost of a toll to the drive pushes more people off the roads, thus you then have to raise the tolls higher, driving more people off the roads...

Simply stated, we can't afford the roads, the maintenance cost is too high. Without maintenance, they probably can function for a few more years getting more rutted and dangerous all the time.

Look at the positive side: No more lane closures for maintenance crews!
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Re: US Highway Trust Fund runs out of money this month

Unread postby RSFB » Fri 05 Sep 2008, 17:07:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', 'T')oll interstates, anyone?
Tolls can't work. If folks ALREADY can't afford to drive because of the cost of the gas, adding the cost of a toll to the drive pushes more people off the roads, thus you then have to raise the tolls higher, driving more people off the roads...

They work here in Europe, where gas taxes are already much higher than USA's. Not all European countries have toll fees, but many do. Less people on the roads also means lower maintenance costs.

It's just a matter of finding a sweet spot. I don't discount the possibility of that sweet spot not being easy to find in the short term, though. Americans will have to get used to driving less (edit - or paying more), period.
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Re: US Highway Trust Fund runs out of money this month

Unread postby heroineworshipper » Fri 05 Sep 2008, 17:39:02

It would be a lot easier if your government stopped dumping all its taxes on worthless mortgages.

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Re: US Highway Trust Fund runs out of money this month

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Sat 06 Sep 2008, 10:42:57

If tolling were instituted, it would provide an opportunity to correctly assess the amount of damage a typical commercial tractor-trailer does to the roadways, and price that use and damage accordingly. This might go a long ways towards ameliorating the deficiencies in the current trust-fund mechanism.

Of course, it also means our grocery bill would be higher, perhaps a lot higher. But what does that really mean in this day and age of 50% food inflation?
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Re: US Highway Trust Fund runs out of money this month

Unread postby Byron100 » Sat 06 Sep 2008, 12:37:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', 'I')f tolling were instituted, it would provide an opportunity to correctly assess the amount of damage a typical commercial tractor-trailer does to the roadways, and price that use and damage accordingly. This might go a long ways towards ameliorating the deficiencies in the current trust-fund mechanism.

Of course, it also means our grocery bill would be higher, perhaps a lot higher. But what does that really mean in this day and age of 50% food inflation?


Oh, gosh yes! Even in this "declining" economy, the big rigs still rule the road, and woe to anyone that gets in their way. :evil:

Freight needs to be moved by rail / ship / barge...and truck traffic needs to be curtailed as much as possible...the roads belong to cars, not trucks, IMO. That's why I loved traveling on Florida's Turnpike back in the days I used to scoot up and down that peninsula...very, very few trucks due to the high tolls they were charged.

I'd fully support a tolling of our Interstates if it accomplished two things: Getting rid of the majority of long-distance truck traffic, and provide drastically increased funding for rail and other mass transit options.
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Re: US Highway Trust Fund runs out of money this month

Unread postby jbrovont » Sat 06 Sep 2008, 12:49:52

You guys also drive less and have great public transit, which our representatives have ignored our need for. Maybe this will be a wake up call that we need to get on the path to a model like yours. Discourage driving while providing closer, cheaper options.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RSFB', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', 'T')oll interstates, anyone?
Tolls can't work. If folks ALREADY can't afford to drive because of the cost of the gas, adding the cost of a toll to the drive pushes more people off the roads, thus you then have to raise the tolls higher, driving more people off the roads...

They work here in Europe, where gas taxes are already much higher than USA's. Not all European countries have toll fees, but many do. Less people on the roads also means lower maintenance costs.

It's just a matter of finding a sweet spot. I don't discount the possibility of that sweet spot not being easy to find in the short term, though. Americans will have to get used to driving less (edit - or paying more), period.
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Re: US Highway Trust Fund runs out of money this month

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 06 Sep 2008, 14:21:09

The trucking industry has a very strong lobby. There is no logic in laws that allow 90,000 trucks to be registered and run on highways no matter how high the registration fees, tolls or fuel taxes. Our boughtenpaidfor politicans have been subsidising the industry with low fees for decades and we get to make up the difference with our auto taxes and fees.
The one that burns me the most is upping the allowable load by just sticking another axle under a dump truck. 14 wheels vs. 10. spreads the load over more pavement but the bridge still has to take the whole load inside the same bumper to bumper distance. I've seen trucks in the mid west that look like a centipede.
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Re: US Highway Trust Fund runs out of money this month

Unread postby Kristen » Sat 06 Sep 2008, 14:45:32

Well in the short term the Federal Gov is just going to tell the states "You're on your own champ." As peak oil occurs I imagine the more important state government will be. Also states that are next to one another will work together more and will create regional funds. it will be interesting.
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Re: US Highway Trust Fund runs out of money this month

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Sat 06 Sep 2008, 21:16:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', 'O')h, gosh yes! Even in this "declining" economy, the big rigs still rule the road, and woe to anyone that gets in their way. :evil:

Freight needs to be moved by rail / ship / barge...and truck traffic needs to be curtailed as much as possible...the roads belong to cars, not trucks, IMO. That's why I loved traveling on Florida's Turnpike back in the days I used to scoot up and down that peninsula...very, very few trucks due to the high tolls they were charged.

I'd fully support a tolling of our Interstates if it accomplished two things: Getting rid of the majority of long-distance truck traffic, and provide drastically increased funding for rail and other mass transit options.


The whole purpose of the interstate system is to move around the goods efficiently in a "just in time" fashion. You take the big rigs off the roads, there REALLY is no purpose in having such costly high maintenance roads all over the place. Just so you can tool over to the coast at 90MPH in your BMW?

Obviously by subsidizing the road system for so many years we subsidized the trucking industry at the expense of the railroads, but of course regardless of this as Peak Oil takes hold, the trucking industry is in its Death Throes. You can't directly charge the trucking companies for their use of the roads, they already are operating on a thin margin and are going bankrupt ANYHOW.

If you actually took into account the real costs of moving goods this way with all the maintenance of the roads necessary, freight charges would double, probably triple. You end up paying mostly for transport costs, not a whole lot for the actual goods themselves.

Anyhow, this is a done deal, the economies have to go more local at least until at some distant time in the future we reorganize the transport system again around the new realities.

The Interstate while it lasted however was one of the Seven Wonders of the Modern World. I drove every mile of it in my Freightliner. A Public works Project that really dwarfs even the Great Wall of China. Like that Wall though, it is now Obsolete.

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Re: US Highway Trust Fund runs out of money this month

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Sat 06 Sep 2008, 22:49:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', ' ')You take the big rigs off the roads, there REALLY is no purpose in having such costly high maintenance roads all over the place. Just so you can tool over to the coast at 90MPH in your BMW?


You can bet that the interstate system wasn't sold to the American public but for the chance at coasting 90 MPH between oceans. The trucking industry was practically nascent at the time, and certainly didn't resemble anything like we have today.

Weren't gross weights limited to something like 50,000 lbs at one point?
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Re: US Highway Trust Fund runs out of money this month

Unread postby mattduke » Sun 07 Sep 2008, 01:22:20

The government transportation system kills 40,000 per year.
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Re: US Highway Trust Fund runs out of money this month

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Sun 07 Sep 2008, 02:36:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', '
')You can bet that the interstate system wasn't sold to the American public but for the chance at coasting 90 MPH between oceans. The trucking industry was practically nascent at the time, and certainly didn't resemble anything like we have today.


Dwight Eisenhower sold the Interstate as necessary for National Security. As a lieutenenant int he Army in the 1920s, he took a convoy across the "Lincoln Highway", basically a lot of poorly maintained rutted up local roads across the country.

In reality of course, the interstate was built as the Oil Era gathered up to full steam here in the US, and the Automobile that Henry Ford envisioned as being in every garage came to pass. The cars needed the highways, the highways need the cars.

A subsidized road system made the railroads non-competitive, they after all have to maintain their own track. So in the wake of the interstate came the trucking industry, which only exists because it was subsidized in the building of its "track" by the individual Amerikan who also wants this road to drive at 90 MPH to swim at a FL Beach. Meanwhile, said Amerikan became addicted to all the products delivered "Just in Time" over the interstate system by the trucks, but of course finds it annoying to have to share the road with the big rigs carrying their toilet paper.

What is the difference between putting a toll Booth on the road and charging a tax on the fuel used to drive on same roads? The only difference I can see is you need toll booths. So go ahead, tax the heck out of the trucking companies for using the roads, you however will have to pay for that in terms of much higher prices on your Toilet Paper. You soon won't be able to afford the Toilet Paper or afford the tolls on the road along the way to get it.

This all was made possible by Oil which flowed freely out of the ground down in Texas in 1950. Its GONE now there, and rapidly its being GONE from fields all around the world, and even if its not GONE, other people want it also and so it COSTS a LOT more. The whole model doesn't WORK anymore, and no tolls are going to keep the Interstate system free of potholes.

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Re: US Highway Trust Fund runs out of money this month

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 07 Sep 2008, 04:40:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '[')

The whole purpose of the interstate system is to move around the goods efficiently in a "just in time" fashion. You take the big rigs off the roads, there REALLY is no purpose in having such costly high maintenance roads all over the place. Just so you can tool over to the coast at 90MPH in your BMW?



Well the stated purpose of the interstate system was to allow the movement of troops on something less vulnerable then rail lines.
The main real purpose was to allow autos and trucks to move along at a constant speed and not come to a stop at each cross road with its waste of fuel and chance of collision. Just look at the differance between fuel rateings city to highway. Imagine if there was no highways so every mile was a city mile. And think of how many stop lights and signs there are between New York and San Francisco.
The old Keystone cops silent films show you what city traffic had become with just model Ts and As. Imagine if they had done nothing to get rid of the stop signs. The fact that it allowed the truckers to break the monopoly of the rail roads was just a side benifit.
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Re: US Highway Trust Fund runs out of money this month

Unread postby Javaman » Sun 07 Sep 2008, 10:49:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '
')
A subsidized road system made the railroads non-competitive, they after all have to maintain their own track. So in the wake of the interstate came the trucking industry, which only exists because it was subsidized in the building of its "track" by the individual Amerikan who also wants this road to drive at 90 MPH to swim at a FL Beach. Meanwhile, said Amerikan became addicted to all the products delivered "Just in Time" over the interstate system by the trucks, but of course finds it annoying to have to share the road with the big rigs carrying their toilet paper.

What is the difference between putting a toll Booth on the road and charging a tax on the fuel used to drive on same roads? The only difference I can see is you need toll booths. So go ahead, tax the heck out of the trucking companies for using the roads, you however will have to pay for that in terms of much higher prices on your Toilet Paper. You soon won't be able to afford the Toilet Paper or afford the tolls on the road along the way to get it.


A large truck loaded with toilet paper weighs only a few tons more than it would empty, and shouldn't have a particularly high road use tax. The truck might weigh about the same as a bus carrying fifty passengers.

A large truck carrying 50,000 pounds of canned goods would still be mostly empty. If you leave out a few tons of canned goods, you could carry a large volume of toilet paper relatively cheaply without exceeding the weight limit.
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