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THE Jay Hanson Thread (merged)

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: James Hansen: Prosecute oil companies, top scientist say

Postby Graeme » Wed 25 Jun 2008, 01:28:25

Here's a letter addressed to Dr Hansen from a concerned US citizen, Alisha Fowler, with a college degree:

Dear Dr. Hansen, Cap-and-Dividend NOT Worth Fighting For

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')ear Dr. James Hansen,

For more than twenty years, your scientific expertise and public statements have helped many (including myself) understand the relationship between human activity and global warming. I felt a sense of urgency as I read your latest testimony to Congress (PDF) regarding the need to curb greenhouse gases and put us on the path to building a clean energy economy. I can only imagine how frustrated you must be by the inability of Congress to pass meaningful and comprehensive energy and climate legislation. As I read your testimony it was clear that you fully grasp the scale of the energy and climate challenge and desire to implement effective solutions that will tackle it head on.

That’s why I felt totally lost when you articulated what you feel is the best way to transform our current energy system. You said, “One hundred percent dividend or fight!”

The Cap-and-Dividend regulatory approach will not spur large-scale investment in new technology fast enough to rise to the challenge.

So, Dr. Hansen, I for one am NOT interested in fighting for a Cap-and-Dividend scheme. On the other hand, an investment-based policy solution with the potential to spark lasting economic prosperity — and not just dividend checks in the mail — IS something I’m ready to fight for.

One thing you are absolutely right about: the 2008 election is critical for the planet and time is short. Let’s make our policies clear, and get them right.

Sincerely,

Alisha Fowler


There are 3 responses to this letter at the end. If you wish, you can add yours at the "itgettinghotinhere" site or here.
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Re: James Hansen: Prosecute oil companies, top scientist say

Postby Plantagenet » Wed 25 Jun 2008, 01:41:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Graeme', '
')
Does anyone have any comments about Markey's bill?


The cap and trade system isn't working very well in Europe. The claim was it would reduce CO2 emissions. ----- but in reality the EU countries are almost all failing to meet their Kyoto commitments. All "cap and trade" seems to do is increase taxes on the energy consumer.
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Re: James Hansen: Prosecute oil companies, top scientist say

Postby Graeme » Wed 25 Jun 2008, 03:16:19

Thanks for your comment. I'm not an expert on the European Emissions Trading Scheme but from what I have been able to discover so far is that you are partly correct.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he New York Times reports today that after three years the much ballyhooed cap-and-trade system in Europe is not working and that instead of reducing greenhouse gases that carbon dioxide emissions are actually increasing.

Backers of these markets, which involve setting limits on greenhouse gases and then allowing companies to buy and sell emission permits, see the approach as one of the cheapest and most effective ways to control the gases in advanced economies. The presidential candidates Barack Obama and John McCain have both endorsed the idea.

Yet in Europe, which created the world’s largest greenhouse gas market three years ago, early evidence suggests the whole approach could fail. Carbon dioxide emissions are still rising in many industries, not falling.


However, this is perhaps because emissions trading has just begun for the first phase (2005 - 2007) where emissions increased
1.9%. There will be a phase 2 (2008 - 2012), and phase 3 - allocations will be centralised by an EU authority during this period.

You are partly correct because this MIT study suggests that the European system is "working well".

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n a bid to control greenhouse gas emissions linked to climate change, the European Union has been operating the world's first system to limit and to trade carbon dioxide. Despite its hasty adoption and somewhat rocky beginning three years ago, the EU "cap-and-trade" system has operated well and has had little or no negative impact on the overall EU economy, according to an MIT analysis.

The MIT results provide both encouragement and guidance to policy makers working to design a carbon dioxide (CO2)-trading scheme for the United States and for the world.
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Re: James Hansen: Prosecute oil companies, top scientist say

Postby mos6507 » Wed 25 Jun 2008, 03:29:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', ' ')"Switch to a small EV" I'd be all for that!


How will people charge up their EVs?

Coal-fired power plants release EVEN MORE CO2 then gasoline, so in some situations an EV is worse for the environment then a conventional auto.


Come on, you know this is inaccurate FUD on multiple levels.
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Re: James Hansen: Prosecute oil companies, top scientist say

Postby cube » Wed 25 Jun 2008, 06:39:13

To Plantagenet:

I'm no supporter of EV cars but even still I wouldn't support your claim.
Please keep your facts straight!
EV cars being charged by a coal plant is still cleaner then gasoline powered cars.
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Re: James Hansen: Prosecute oil companies, top scientist say

Postby Graeme » Wed 25 Jun 2008, 23:42:36

Here's a response from Peabody Energy:

Big Coal Fires Back Over James Hansen’s Criminal Complaint

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')r. Svec is a senior vice president for Peabody, which is the largest private coal producer in the world (to get an idea of their volume, and mission, visit peabodyenergy.com and watch the amazing coal-sales “ticker” at the bottom reel off tons of coal sold per second.

Here’s what Mr. Svec said about Dr. Hansen’s assertions:

1. His use of Holocaust analogies is outrageous and demeaning. It cheapens the dialogue and invites ridicule.

2. The suggestion that a dissemination of ideas be criminalized –- coming from a government employee no less –- does hearken back to World War II. It is stunning and should be pounced upon by everyone who advocates free speech, from the ACLU and talk radio complex to yourself.

3. Blaming big oil and big coal for the broad array of opinions about climate change is disingenuous. If he would imprison those who don’t march in lockstep with his views, the jails would be very, very big. It would include thousands of scientists and university professors and the likes of the president of the Czech Republic, a former founder of Greenpeace and the former founder of The Weather Channel.

4. Speaking for Peabody, our time and energy are being devoted to satisfying an energy-hungry world’s need for coal and advancing the commercialization of carbon capture and storage technology. Among other initiatives, we’re proud to have reduced our greenhouse gas emissions intensity by more than 30% since 1990; to be the initial developer of a supercritical coal plant that will emit 15% lower carbon dioxide than existing plants; to be a founding member of the FutureGen Alliance; to be a part of Australia’s low-carbon Coal 21 program; and to be the only non-Chinese partner in China’s zero-emissions GreenGen project.

In short, while some are interested in sound bites, we’ll keep going about the serious work of providing clean coal, energy solutions and environmental improvement.


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Re: James Hansen: Prosecute oil companies, top scientist say

Postby Graeme » Thu 26 Jun 2008, 04:07:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Graeme', '
')
Does anyone have any comments about Markey's bill?


The cap and trade system isn't working very well in Europe. The claim was it would reduce CO2 emissions. ----- but in reality the EU countries are almost all failing to meet their Kyoto commitments. All "cap and trade" seems to do is increase taxes on the energy consumer.


California unveils ambitious climate plan

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he plan, which aims to reduce pollutants by 10 percent from current levels by 2020 while driving investment in new energy technologies that will benefit the state's economy, is the most comprehensive yet by any U.S. state.

It could serve as a blueprint not only for the rest of the United States, but also for other big polluting nations like China and India, planners and environmental groups said.

The initiatives include implementing a cap-and-trade program on carbon dioxide emissions that will require buildings and appliances to use less energy, oil companies to make cleaner fuels, and utilities to provide a third of their energy from renewable sources like wind and solar power.

The program will also encourage development of walkable cities with shorter commutes, high-speed rail as an alternative to air travel, and will require more hybrid and hydrogen-fueled vehicles both to move goods and people, CARB said.


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Re: James Hansen: Prosecute oil companies, top scientist say

Postby Mesuge » Thu 26 Jun 2008, 06:03:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', ' ')"Switch to a small EV" I'd be all for that!


How will people charge up their EVs?

Coal-fired power plants release EVEN MORE CO2 then gasoline, so in some situations an EV is worse for the environment then a conventional auto.



He was talking about small EVs with limited weight (<400kg), sub freeway speed limit etc. This vehicle category is called NEV, the fuel tank aka lead acid battery pack stores usually 5-10kWh at max., ~250mpg. There is NO techno/price problem to feed it completely from distributed PVs in sunny climate where people already charge both their houses and big ~25kWh EVs with small PV systems ~2.5kWp. In northern climates it is possible with the help of the grid and partial PV/wind system.

Obviously this applies only to shorter commute arrangements.
NEVs will be the luxury of the future, J6P will ride a bicycle or train/tram were possible. Full EVs with 25-50kWh batt. like Tesla will be only the uberluxury toy for the top of the top of the top.

This is what sane society might do with the given cards,
I'm not placing my bets on this scenario for the majority of cases though..

http://youtube.com/watch?v=CVV_GppEUPM

the same Microcar/Zenn platform,
featuring "KITT" brain, driving in the snow (ICE version):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=IfPNnUXrUOk
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Re: James Hansen: Prosecute oil companies, top scientist say

Postby Plantagenet » Thu 26 Jun 2008, 18:41:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mesuge', '.').. small EVs with limited weight (<400kg), sub freeway speed limit etc. This vehicle category is called NEV, the fuel tank aka lead acid battery pack stores usually 5-10kWh at max., ~250mpg. There is NO techno/price problem to feed it completely from distributed PVs in sunny climate where people already charge both their houses and big ~25kWh EVs with small PV systems ~2.5kWp. In northern climates it is possible with the help of the grid and partial PV/wind system.....
This is what sane society might do with the given cards,
I'm not placing my bets on this scenario for the majority of cases though..



Great!

Where can I buy one (and a "small PV system" to power it?)

Does it work in places that get to -40 C with no sunlight for several months?

And how how much will the car and the PV system cost?

Thanks!
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Re: James Hansen: Prosecute oil companies, top scientist say

Postby mos6507 » Thu 26 Jun 2008, 22:20:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '
')Does it work in places that get to -40 C with no sunlight for several months?


Do you live in Alaska?
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Re: James Hansen: Prosecute oil companies, top scientist say

Postby Mesuge » Fri 27 Jun 2008, 04:47:11

Please read my post again, I basically said people in the sunny regions have no excuses not to migrate to affordable PV system and some sort of minimum EV, especially when this gadgetery is still so cheap in the US. Obviously if you "have to" commute on the freeway 50mi daily and more that's another animal, relocate..

No sun and/or wind = no "renewable" motoring
but you can still use the grid till it lasts..
(There are canadians and alaskans with EVs and limited impact of weather on milage)

Also being alaskan you might get wood at competetive prices,
you can search up on wood-gas powered cars, which is an old and proven technology most likely it will be "DOT - unapproved" but if you are driving in the woods who cares..

Vintage Volvo + woodgas + lotsa gauges + snow => no prob!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4n_OaCIQ-s
http://vedbil.se/indexe.shtml

If you are living in "alaskan suburb" and commuting dozens of miles, well I'm sorry that's a very bad living arrangement to start with anyway..

Well, if your life/survival is so dependent on any type of automobile, change that, my summer house with garden/fresh water is within the reach of bicycle with cargo trailer and/or bus/train combo.

--
But any such preparation no matter how wise it may now seem will be stupid waste of time in the "zombie" aka fast crash scenario or if PNAC like biochem warfare fast depopulation scheme prevails.
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Jay Hanson's First "vid" on Limits to Growth

Postby roccman » Sat 19 Jul 2008, 01:09:26

One of the true pioneers of PO, Overshoot, Die Off, and most all other topics we discuss here daily...Jay Hanson...tries his hand at video making.

Very stark.

http://www.warsocialism.com/limitstogrowth.htm

More from Jay at his legendary:

dieoff.com

site
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Re: Jay Hanson's First "vid" on Limits to Growth

Postby smallpoxgirl » Sat 19 Jul 2008, 01:23:33

Yes. Stark indeed. I assume the "one barrel invested" he's talking about is not actually a barrel of oil but the equivalent energy amount. Right? Clearly 1:1 is a crappy EROEI, but it may not necessarily be the wash it would seem if you're trading 1 BTU of coal fired electricity for 1 BTU of crude oil, since the BTU of crude offers more potential uses. Still I didn't realize the EROEI here had gotten that bad.
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Re: Jay Hanson's First "vid" on Limits to Growth

Postby yeahbut » Sat 19 Jul 2008, 03:01:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('roccman', 'O')ne of the true pioneers of PO, Overshoot, Die Off, and most all other topics we discuss here daily...Jay Hanson...tries his hand at video making.

Very stark.

http://www.warsocialism.com/limitstogrowth.htm

More from Jay at his legendary:

dieoff.com

site


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')Overshoot and Carrying Capacity" (OCC) is the place to discuss all issues related to just that, overshoot, carrying capacity and the consequences there of. There are a number of things that you need to know about this new forum.

1. This is the place where these issues are to be discussed. All attempts to discuss the issue in other forums will be moved to OCC.


rocc said the bad words! Take him away to the 're-education' forum 8O
Wow. Is this really happening? Here, of all places?
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Re: Jay Hanson's First "vid" on Limits to Growth

Postby roccman » Sat 19 Jul 2008, 08:51:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yeahbut', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('roccman', 'O')ne of the true pioneers of PO, Overshoot, Die Off, and most all other topics we discuss here daily...Jay Hanson...tries his hand at video making.

Very stark.

http://www.warsocialism.com/limitstogrowth.htm

More from Jay at his legendary:

dieoff.com

site


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')Overshoot and Carrying Capacity" (OCC) is the place to discuss all issues related to just that, overshoot, carrying capacity and the consequences there of. There are a number of things that you need to know about this new forum.

1. This is the place where these issues are to be discussed. All attempts to discuss the issue in other forums will be moved to OCC.


rocc said the bad words! Take him away to the 're-education' forum 8O
Wow. Is this really happening? Here, of all places?


Hmmm...was not aware of these new places ...new faces.

Mods - move...merge...at will.

Jay should have his own thread, but whatever makes sense to the hive.
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Re: Jay Hanson's First "vid" on Limits to Growth

Postby smallpoxgirl » Sat 19 Jul 2008, 08:56:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yeahbut', 'r')occ said the bad words! Take him away to the 're-education' forum 8O


As far as I'm aware saying the words has not become taboo. If this thread becomes a discussion of those topics, then maybe it will need to be moved.
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Re: Jay Hanson's First "vid" on Limits to Growth

Postby SoylentGreen » Sat 19 Jul 2008, 12:32:00

I like his "now see Spot run" approach. Great for sheeple.
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Re: Jay Hanson's First "vid" on Limits to Growth

Postby yeahbut » Sat 19 Jul 2008, 16:54:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yeahbut', 'r')occ said the bad words! Take him away to the 're-education' forum 8O


As far as I'm aware saying the words has not become taboo. If this thread becomes a discussion of those topics, then maybe it will need to be moved.


I'm sure it won't come up. Any mention of overshoot or carrying capacity while discussing a vid about the limits to growth would be wilful and inflammatory with no relevance to the topic :roll:
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We evolved to deceive ourselves - Jay Hanson

Postby Roccland » Wed 20 Aug 2008, 14:45:32

Don't know if this is the right forum for this - it is about politics.

Jay Hanson on Politics
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Re: We evolved to deceive ourselves - Jay Hanson

Postby lonewolf » Wed 20 Aug 2008, 16:01:33

poly: many
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