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The myth of "bugging out into the wild"

Discussions related to the physiological and psychological effects of peak oil on our members and future generations.
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Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"

Unread postby mos6507 » Tue 19 Aug 2008, 10:56:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')A phenomenon common to humans that I've noted over the years is that most people, when given a choice between a painful situation that they're familiar with and an unknown situation which might be even more painful --even if it could potentially be entirely enjoyable-- will choose to remain in their current unpleasant circumstances, rather than taking a chance on the unknown and possibly greater pain. Women who stay in abusive relationships for years are a common example.

Most people prefer to prolong a miserable life as long as possible rather than willingly opt for that Ultimate Unknown we call death...


That explains the 2004 presidential election.
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Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"

Unread postby catbox » Tue 19 Aug 2008, 11:04:17

Out of all my family and friends, I have only one person that might be able to pull it off. This person has spent the last 20 years deep in Patagonia, training young people to survive out in the middle of no place, etc....he's seen it all and does not mind being out there alone. That said, I doubt he would actually bug out...due that he's left his trekking days behind... (with an occasional venture to lead folks into the wild for the NRDC) and is settled off the grid in Homboldt County and is quite satisfied with that.

So of everyone I know (tossing in some mountaineers and guys who take helicopters to the top of mountains to snowboard down)...just one qualifies in my book....and it looks like he's ok just being off the grid.

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Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"

Unread postby katnipkid » Tue 19 Aug 2008, 11:41:49

Another thing to consider for bugging out is how the locals will treat you when you get there. Where are you plannning on going to ? If you are an outsider, say from NYC, and you plan to go a few hours into a very rural area, you may not be greeted with open arms,no matter if you are several people or not. It is one thing to vacation in an area, maybe even own a vacation something there. Locals, however, probably don't really have anything in common with you, and probably resent/dislike you if you scratch the surface. One skill to have that you cannot pack in a duffle bag is the ability to win people over, to get along with them. On some forums, people speak of bugging out as if there are no people in the areas that you will be going to. If you are going there, most likely there are people there already who see it as home. Die off or no die off, chaos or not, these are people who have settled there, some for generations. Just remember that.
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Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Tue 19 Aug 2008, 13:52:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'O')K, shoot it full of holes :-)

Impassable roads will develop quickly around any major city in a SHTF situation. You would have to get out before the general population was aware there was a serious problem.


The "Katrina we can't even evacuate in Schoolbuses" problem.

Absolutely true, you would have to at least be 1 day ahead of everybody else in figuring out TSHTF. That is why you have the trailer packed all the time and the SUV topped off on gas all the time. You want to be able to walk right out the door of your house the MINUTE you hear over the radio "President McCain has repealed Habeus Corpus and all Americans are required to report to the local Police Station for their radio tag ID collars".

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Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Tue 19 Aug 2008, 14:00:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RedStateGreen', 'R')everse Engineer, you have a place to bug out to, right? Because if you're just heading off somewhere it's not a good plan. And there's always the matter of timing (sure as your gas goes bad or you run one of your SUV's below half, that's when TSHTF).

The corollary to bugging out to a known location is making sure someone else hasn't taken it over first.

To all you searching the wild for a hideout: that lovely abandoned cabin in the woods might be someone's bugout lair, and they're not going to be happy to see you when they show up with their guns and friends. (but if you have more guns and more friends it might work... :roll: )


The scenario I wrote was for the city dweller not quite able to move out yet as a better alternative than staying in the city and waiting for the Zombies or the Cops to get you. Its a prep you could make in a couple of trips to Walmart.

Also true is that to really get so far out that you won't find a house for miles generally means somewhere near a State or National Park. So if you have no relationship with the locals, you certainly could have a problem with that.

I already Bugged Out. 2 years ago.

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Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"

Unread postby highlander » Wed 20 Aug 2008, 00:31:05

I am reminded tonight that the best laid plans.....
You might have a perfect bug out location
you might have an unlimited budget for preps
you might have a network of like-minded individuals for support

one lightning strike ends everything.

Lincoln county 15,000 acre wildfire. Level 3 evacuation.

Hawk Creek, if you are reading. My prayers are with you and your neighbors. PM me if you need anything. I know what you are facing. We almost were burned out before we finished building.
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Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"

Unread postby threadbear » Wed 20 Aug 2008, 01:07:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cashmere', 'I') don't think it's a myth. I think it's very doable. Think about it. Thousands of men did it when the country was being colonized (invaded).

There are plenty of fairly vast, forested areas where you can disappear into the forest. Life would be difficult. And simple. Very simple.

I guess my perspective is this . . . I don't love my own life enough to want to protect it by living in the woods by myself for the next X number of years. Simple as that for me.

I've never got that about people. I met some 70 year old guy who was desperate to live. I'm thinking, "why?" What the hell is it about being on this parasite infested sh1t-hole of a planet that you find so endearing? 70 years isn't enough?


That's a funny sad kind of post. I kind of agree with your sentiments sometimes, though.
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Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"

Unread postby TreebeardsUncle » Wed 20 Aug 2008, 02:03:29

A few things:

1. The mountains are often not a great place to go to as they are low in edible animal and plant resources. They do have snow, running water, and timber generally though.

2. It is good to be rich. Having a garden in the country with a fish pond, chickens etc would help.

3. A lowland coastal environment would have more ediple plant and animal resources. There are still some along the American River, the Olympic Peninsual rivers, and the tidal zones. The last have extensive shellfish colonies.
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Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Wed 20 Aug 2008, 03:53:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'Y')ou want to be able to walk right out the door of your house the MINUTE you hear over the radio "President McCain has repealed Habeus Corpus and all Americans are required to report to the local Police Station for their radio tag ID collars".

I thought they undermined Habeus Corpus already (search for it on these forums, there's a thread somewhere). As far as radio ID - don't you have a cell phone? Sure, it's voluntary. Nothing to worry about.

By the way, I own this T-shirt:

http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/itdepartment/31fc/


DEFINITELY, leave the Cell Phone behind along with anything else that connects to computer networks. Do NOT sign on the Internet from ANYWHERE, on ANY computer.

You can keep CB radios, analogue ones over the FRS digital Walkie Talkies, but keep them powered down unless absolutely necessary.

I would even worry about "recommended Flu AntiViral Injections" supposedly for the purpose of protecting you from Bird Flu. Who knows WHAT is being pushed into your system through that needle. I'll take my chances with my own immune system.

Far as Habeua Corpus already being repealed, yea in practicality I realize it has been. However, at a certain point here I think that the government will take extreme measures of some kind that are clearly indicators that its time to BUG OUT. I used Habeus Corpus as an example, but its probably not a good one.

For this Disaster, this is one reason the roads won't necessarily clog up. Many if not most people will still be in denial, and they won't consider the most recent removal of their individual rights to be "worthy" of Bugging Out and taking your chances in the Wilderness with all your gear. This is where Critical Thinking skills can save you. You have to grasp when your LAST CHANCE has come to get out before you are TRAPPED.

Its up to each individual to make that decision, to say to themselves, "Its GONE. I HAVE to GET OUT NOW!"

I made that decision 2 years ago, a little early I guess. Its still possible to get out. How much longer though I cannot predict.

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Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Wed 20 Aug 2008, 04:25:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('highlander', 'I') am reminded tonight that the best laid plans.....
You might have a perfect bug out location
you might have an unlimited budget for preps
you might have a network of like-minded individuals for support

one lightning strike ends everything.

Lincoln county 15,000 acre wildfire. Level 3 evacuation.

Hawk Creek, if you are reading. My prayers are with you and your neighbors. PM me if you need anything. I know what you are facing. We almost were burned out before we finished building.


This problem actually shows why the MOBILE solution is better than the "put all your eggs in one basket" idea of picking a single place to invest all your money in and build a Survival Palace.

What if when TSHTF your spot is the one hit by drought or by wildfires? You invested all that money in planting yourself in that location, but OOPS, it turns out to be a bad choice!

Putting together a Mobile Gypsy Community might be better. At the Last Minute, you can choose the best spot. Have a few Alternative Destinations. Your main limitation would be the total amount of gas you could store and transport to get you to the destination.

Its pretty hard to predict absolutely which area will provide the best security and best overall survivability. The longer you can maintain some OPTIONS here, the better.

As a former Big Rig driver, I could take this one a step further, and say if you really had the financial wherewithal, rather than building in one place NOW, a better choice might be to outfit 10 to 12 tractor trailers with everything you can buy to set up a community anywhere in the country. Load em up and be ready to move out in a Convoy. Pick your spot and "circle the wagons". Patrol the Perimeter in your 4 wheelers and on Horseback with the horses pulled by one of the Big Rigs. Shoot to Kill.

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Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Wed 20 Aug 2008, 04:39:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', ' ')I bet your little community could last 2 or 3 years, and after that much time, the rest of the Zombies will have mostly Perished.

What if they haven't conveniently Perished? You've just been camping, not living, in the wilderness, and have only prepared to camp for 2 or 3 years, so - now what if you can't conveniently resupply from civilization? Resupply with what, anyway? Wouldn't the Zombies have eaten all the food, used up all the ammo?

This is just what leaps to mind as holes in this plan.


After 3 years, with a complete breakdown of the transportation infrastructure, the chances of many Zombies being left alive is small. They will only be able to live so long consuming each other. Remembr, they have no stored food, they will burn up the canned food they loot in a matter of weeks.

You definitely wait as long as possible before venturing inward. Why do it? Well, after the Zombies have killed each other off, the scavengers return to feast off the rotting flesh, and the Deer return to eat the growing grass over the parking lots. You probably find better hunting than in your own neighborhood which might be running thin on game.

You may run into other Tribes doing the same thing. You might exchange some children to maintain genetic diversity in your tribe. They might be making something you don't know how to make, you might be making something they don;t know how to make. You might establish a mutually beneficial Trade arrangement.

Such is how society MIGHT be rebuilt in the Aftermath. Eventually, you gotta come out of your hole. Just you want to stay safe in your hole as long as you can.

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Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"

Unread postby RedStateGreen » Thu 21 Aug 2008, 17:04:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '
')For this Disaster, this is one reason the roads won't necessarily clog up. Many if not most people will still be in denial, and they won't consider the most recent removal of their individual rights to be "worthy" of Bugging Out and taking your chances in the Wilderness with all your gear. This is where Critical Thinking skills can save you. You have to grasp when your LAST CHANCE has come to get out before you are TRAPPED.

Its up to each individual to make that decision, to say to themselves, "Its GONE. I HAVE to GET OUT NOW!"

I made that decision 2 years ago, a little early I guess. Its still possible to get out. How much longer though I cannot predict.

Reverse Engineer

Get out to where, though? Another country? Some mythical place in the US where no one can find you? I'm not sure what you're talking about.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('efarmer', '&')quot;Taste the sizzling fury of fajita skillet death you marauding zombie goon!"

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Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"

Unread postby RedStateGreen » Thu 21 Aug 2008, 17:08:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '
')Putting together a Mobile Gypsy Community might be better. At the Last Minute, you can choose the best spot. Have a few Alternative Destinations. Your main limitation would be the total amount of gas you could store and transport to get you to the destination.

Its pretty hard to predict absolutely which area will provide the best security and best overall survivability. The longer you can maintain some OPTIONS here, the better.


This is a good idea, something I've been thinking about recently. It might be good for those of us in drivable proximity to each other to network. If one is burned out or flooded out, they can take their portable preps and go to the other's place. The chances of everyone in a geographic region (say your state and the states/countries surrounding you) being similarly affected is lower the more people you have in the 'club'.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('efarmer', '&')quot;Taste the sizzling fury of fajita skillet death you marauding zombie goon!"

First thing to ask: Cui bono?
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Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 21 Aug 2008, 17:32:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RedStateGreen', ' ')It might be good for those of us in drivable proximity to each other to network. If one is burned out or flooded out, they can take their portable preps and go to the other's place.


Does anyone trust each other enough for that?
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Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"

Unread postby gnm » Thu 21 Aug 2008, 17:55:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RedStateGreen', ' ')It might be good for those of us in drivable proximity to each other to network. If one is burned out or flooded out, they can take their portable preps and go to the other's place.


Does anyone trust each other enough for that?


Jack's pretty close to you right? What could go wrong?

8O

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Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"

Unread postby mos6507 » Thu 21 Aug 2008, 22:37:00

Living the life of a refugee is not for everyone. I have really taken the ending of What a Way to Go to heart. The narrator felt that in the end rather than constantly seeking a safe haven, the healthier approach is to just ask yourself where you feel you belong, then plant yourself down and make your final stand.
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Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"

Unread postby RedStateGreen » Thu 21 Aug 2008, 23:12:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'L')iving the life of a refugee is not for everyone. I have really taken the ending of What a Way to Go to heart. The narrator felt that in the end rather than constantly seeking a safe haven, the healthier approach is to just ask yourself where you feel you belong, then plant yourself down and make your final stand.

In that case I'd go back to California, but I'm not sure that's the best choice right now. :cry:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('efarmer', '&')quot;Taste the sizzling fury of fajita skillet death you marauding zombie goon!"

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Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Fri 22 Aug 2008, 02:09:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RedStateGreen', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '
')For this Disaster, this is one reason the roads won't necessarily clog up. Many if not most people will still be in denial, and they won't consider the most recent removal of their individual rights to be "worthy" of Bugging Out and taking your chances in the Wilderness with all your gear. This is where Critical Thinking skills can save you. You have to grasp when your LAST CHANCE has come to get out before you are TRAPPED.

Its up to each individual to make that decision, to say to themselves, "Its GONE. I HAVE to GET OUT NOW!"

I made that decision 2 years ago, a little early I guess. Its still possible to get out. How much longer though I cannot predict.

Reverse Engineer

Get out to where, though? Another country? Some mythical place in the US where no one can find you? I'm not sure what you're talking about.


WHERE to go? In the Lower 48, a very difficult question to answer.

One annoying poster in another thread suggests his Survival Palace in North Idaho as a Great Survival Location. You might drive your Convoy toward his place and take it over, if you have superior force and weapons :-) Or throw in together with him as a more Diplomatic solution.

Now, the likelihood anyone here has the financial wherewithal by themselves to outfit 10 tractor-trailers with say a livestock trailer pulling horses, a couple of tanker trailers full of diesel & gasoline, a couple of trailers full of food, a couple of flatbeds with building materials, another with an Armory etc etc etc is pretty small. However, there are a couple of alternatives here if you don't actually have the money to do this.

One would be to assemble a Virtual Community of Truckdrivers currently pulling these goods all over the country. When TSHTF, you send out the word as a text to every driver on your list: "CODE PEAK". This is the ACTION call. "BRAZOS!!!" for those of you who remember a TV Movie about a bunch of old TX Rangers who linked together to call to action when needed. They don't actually OWN the goods they are pulling, but do you really care? As long as they show up at the predetermined meeting point you are now working outside the current Laws regarding property anyhow.

The Tractor Trailer idea is at the far end of what might be plausible, but you could do pretty close to this with large SUVs and Pickups and 5th wheel trailers. In this case, if you just convince say 10 friends that this is a good Security Measure for the family they can afford and then make lists of what each family will pack in their Bug Out Vehicle and make sure there is enough fuel actually being pulled to get your convoy at least 500 miles out from a densely populated area, you already have upped your survivability quotient by a long shot over sitting in your city Condo waiting for the Zombies to come out of the woodwork.

Everybody is Packing Heat, and you make NO STOPS on your way to whatever location it is you think is the best choice at the time TSHTF. Are the roads going to be clogged up with people trying to escape? No, this is not like Katrina bearing down on the city, people will be confused and not really sure where to go, if anywhere, as we cannot really pick out the Perfect Spot right now. However, at least we are thinking about this in ADVANCE, and can identify some good possibilities.

The low populations areas around State and National Parks are probably the best choices, but there are SOME folks living there and it would be a good idea to make friends with them. If you show up IN FORCE with WEAPONS in a CONVOY and lots of food with you, I think they would be predisposed to becoming friends with you :-) They already might have Cabins and shelters built, and I think as long as you brought at least enough food for yourselves and some to share with them, they would open up their homes to you. Better of course would be to visit these areas NOW, and start to make some friends in advance.

In all scenarios, its the GROUP that has the survival advantage over the INDIVIDUAL. The bigger the group you can assemble, the better your chances are.

The biggest obstacle to making such a Plan here has already been mentioned. Its the TRUST aspect. In the Virtual World of the internet, we don't really know each other that well, and so assembling such a group here would be impossible. However, people who MEET here to discuss these issues MIGHT invite others to more Private Groups and get to know each other better. If TSHingTF does not happen tommorow, you might actually have enough time to get to know enough people you trust to make such a plan. I know I have friends over the net I would trust, but they are people I have been talking with for YEARS, even though I never have met them IRL.

I am WAY too far out on the edge of civilization already to be part of such a plan. However, if I still lived in a city down in the lower 48, I would consider this to be one of the better plans for survival, with a lot of options and not a ridiculously huge investment either. It mainly hinges on getting enough friends to believe you and make similar preparations. If you can do this, if you can get together at least 10 or so friends to make such preparations, you are going to be a lot better off than waiting in your city condo for the Zombies to come out of the darkness.

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Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"

Unread postby criticalmass » Mon 25 Aug 2008, 15:05:37

"One skill to have that you cannot pack in a duffle bag is the ability to win people over, to get along with them."

The single greatest asset to have if you're thrown into a new collective of any sort.
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Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"

Unread postby Cloud9 » Mon 25 Aug 2008, 15:38:55

Use trains.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoured_train
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