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Virus of Violence

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Unread postby BlisteredWhippet » Wed 16 Mar 2005, 16:06:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bart', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'F')irst of all, Grossman cites a number of studies which were published in peer-reviewed journals, and which anyone here can look up if they choose.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')
It still smells of pop psychology, in which the emphasis is on creating a compelling message, not on giving a balanced view of the research or getting at the truth.

It's easy to cherrypick studies which seem to support one's thesis. This is a big problem in the social sciences which are inherently fuzzy and ambiguous, and in which people want quick answers without thinking too much. We all want the one Big Cause; we don't want to hear about multiple interacting causes and side-effects.

I'm not saying Grossman is wrong. Instead, I'd regard his essay as a starting place for learning more about the subject.


Call me lazy, but I think that is unnecessary. 8)

We can look past Grossman's obvious faults as a writer and a propaganist because its clear to me that his heart is in the right place. The subject and his thesis is important enough not to toss out altogether, and should be intuitively obvious. I've taken a lot of classes in the social sciences and they are first and foremost theoretical in nature. His examples support his thesis, his logic is cogent and he plainly displays his own biases.

You're damn skippy violent video games lead to violent little kids, and thus, violent amoral adults. This conclusion is gaining in popularity because there is a lot of real research and facts to back it up. The contrary theory- that conditioning kids with violence and consumerism vis-a-vis TV and media doesn't cause a degradation of social values is quickly heading the way of the Flat Earth theory.

:twisted:

You could argue that there are also other causes of this effect. Grossman makes a moral argument primarily, not a scientific argument as your objections suggest. Take another look at it and raise issue with his facts, if thats the function of your analysis. His political and social, even religious philosophy, should not discredit his overall argument of "why things are the way they are" in terms of this violence-media interaction.

Do we agree with Grossman in his indictment of TV, education, and our cultural ethics and values as amoral?

To me, there's two possibilities. Either you think that companies should be deploying deceptive and seductive arguments-blatantly emotionally coercive arguments- to children of an impressionable age or you don't.

His solution- regulated censure- is to me overblown, but better than nothing- I'll painfully admit against my bias toward full and open freedom of expression.

The best solution I can think is if blatant deceptive and agreesive marketing was eventually seen as amoral- against conventional morality, "enforced" by a system of social distaste. Only when just about everyone of us is so sick of mass advertising that we decide to turn our backs to anyone and everyone on any suggestion or example of it, making it a taboo is powerful as the one we currently have for say, touching feces, will the "problem" ever be "solved". The limits of social science end with our responsibilities.

My favorite line from the article was

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]"The networks will stick their lenses anywhere and courageously expose anything. Like flies on open wounds, they find nothing too private or shameful for their probing lenses--except themselves..."
Last edited by BlisteredWhippet on Wed 16 Mar 2005, 17:31:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby bart » Wed 16 Mar 2005, 17:20:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', ' ')The contrary theory- that conditioning kids with violence and consumerism vis-a-vis TV and media doesn't cause a degradation of social values is quickly heading the way of the Flat Earth theory.
You're saying that there are only two choices: Grossman's theory that TV=violence or the contrary of Grossman's theory. In fact, there are many causes of violence, many of them interconnected.

For example, one researcher (can't remember his name) found a strong correlation between a country's engaging in war and the incidence of violence in the home country. I believe he studied the War in Vietname and the consequent rise in violence.

Another factor seems to be unemployment; when people are under economic stress, domestic violence seems to shoot up.

A theory I favor is that violence accompanies the breakup of communities. Typically this shows itself as consumerism, competition and isolated activities such as viewing television. In this process of disintegration, televison seems to be a key factor. For a chilling look at how this takes place, see the UK Guardian article: Fast forward into trouble
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')our years ago, Bhutan, the fabled Himalayan Shangri-la, became the last nation on earth to introduce television. Suddenly a culture, barely changed in centuries, was bombarded by 46 cable channels. And all too soon came Bhutan's first crime wave - murder, fraud, drug offences. Cathy Scott-Clark and Adrian Levy report from a country crash-landing in the 21st century

Helena Norberg-Hodge has written extensively on how this process is taking place in Ladahk, another formerly isolated Himalayan kingdom.
Globalisation and Terror
The Pressure to Modernize and Globalize
The Cost of Development

I would agree with you that television, etc. are important; but I think they are only a part of a large process. The problem with seeing only a single cause-effect relationship is that 1) it's not true 2) it shuts down our thinking on a problem that needs deep, patient reflection.

OTOH, I'm all aboard with any efforts to restrict the power of television, etc. So I'm with you there!
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Unread postby TrueKaiser » Wed 16 Mar 2005, 23:57:11

i am sorry BlisteredWhippet but you are the naive one here.
you might be sheltered enough by our modern civilization to not realize a cow had to be killed to make that hamburger you eat, but i am not. a predator must kill it's prey to eat(though a few do eat theirs alive.) and survive. this brings me to the next point, we humans are not any different from animals other then our ability to plan ahead. we are homo sapien's a member of the primates and we are animals, our most recent ancestor species, homo erectius was a animal. and our descendants will be animals.

as for killing ones own kind(aka cannibalism). well we are one of the few species that not only will kill each other for food, but will also kill each other for sport as well. many other predator species are also known to eat their own kind as well, just for survival. from reptiles, the crocodiles. to fish, the shark. to many mammals, which since you don't seem to have a grasp of biology includes you and me.

now on to the ancient history, he points out as a main pillar of his point that all of the deaths in ancient battles were caused by blows to the back. this is simply not the case.
another person here pointed out this flaw.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut even more amazingly, of the thousands of loaded muskets, over half had multiple loads in the barrel

if this guy actually was from a military background, then he either failed or was asleep the day the military collage he went too covered this particular weapon and how it was used. to expand on what the last poster mentioned about this, here are the steps needed to get the firearm ready to fire.
1.stand the gun on it's butt
2.if you have a pre-packaged amount of black gun powder, tear it open and dump most but not all down the barrel of the gun. if you do not have one of these pre-packaged pieces of black powder, open the container with the black powder in it and pour some down the barrel with out the help of a funnel.
3.take a lead ball out of your pocket if it is not in the pre-packaged piece of paper(with the gun powder.) and drop it down the barrel.
4.take out the ram rod which is as long as the barrel of the gun, flip it, then ram the ball into the gun powder.
5.take the ram rod out of the barrel and return it to it's proper place.
6.pick the gun back up.
7.cock the gun, open the latch between the primer pan and the chamber and put some gunpowder on the primer pan.
8.if the gun is a matchlock musket you must now light the the wick, if not ignore this step.
9.you can now aim and fire your weapon.
now try doing this while you have people in front of you within a few yards shooting AT you and i think you can see that the jammed barrels were not due to some innate desire not to kill one's own kind. but out of the fact these people were scared and under do or die pressure.
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Unread postby cube » Thu 17 Mar 2005, 04:53:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Chocky', '.').........

It's actually quite hard to shoot acurately over 'great distances''. The idea that video games teach kids to shoot accurately is not correct.
I agree. I went with my friend to an indoor shooting range and had GREAT difficulty hitting a target from a mere 50 feet...and that's in a calm environment using 2 hands and taking my sweet time trying to control the gun.

There's a big difference between sitting 5 feet away from a TV screen and 50 feet from a target. That and a real gun feels absolutely nothing like a video game gun.....this should be obvious.

For a person who claims to be an expert (with military experience) it amazes me that he'd willingly trash his credibility with such a statement.
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Unread postby Chocky » Thu 17 Mar 2005, 07:20:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hat and a real gun feels absolutely nothing like a video game gun.....this should be obvious.


yeah, I find the biggest hindrance to accurate shooting using a handgun or a powerful rifle is flinching when you fire due to the noise and recoil, which is obviosuly absent in any game. Playing computer games may make you more likely to be able to fire at people, but it sure as hell isn't going to make you more likely to hit them. That's like saying playing Tony Hawk Pro Skater 2 is going to make you skateboard better, or at all.
oh yeah, playing counter-strike didn't help me shoot any more accurately, either. :wink:
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Unread postby TrueKaiser » Thu 17 Mar 2005, 21:07:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Chocky', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hat and a real gun feels absolutely nothing like a video game gun.....this should be obvious.


yeah, I find the biggest hindrance to accurate shooting using a handgun or a powerful rifle is flinching when you fire due to the noise and recoil, which is obviosuly absent in any game. Playing computer games may make you more likely to be able to fire at people, but it sure as hell isn't going to make you more likely to hit them. That's like saying playing Tony Hawk Pro Skater 2 is going to make you skateboard better, or at all.
oh yeah, playing counter-strike didn't help me shoot any more accurately, either. :wink:


but think of it this way. in real life you won't have to suffer through a newbie useing a wall hack and a aim bot.
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Unread postby 0mar » Thu 17 Mar 2005, 21:18:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ercole', 'I') wonder how many hutus have played with their PS2 or watched nôty movies from Holly Wood before killing tutsis, hem... sorry... before cuting tutsis in pieces... :?
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Unread postby gg3 » Fri 18 Mar 2005, 03:11:14

Hutus slaughtering Tutsis; Nazis slaughtering Jews, Poles, Slavs, gays, and disabled people; Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, "honor killings" in the Middle East, and cannibalism on isolated islands: Barbarians, all of them. Not civilized societies. The existence of barbarians does not disprove the thesis, it merely points to one of the tail ends of the normal curve.

This stuff has exactly nothing to do with hunting animals for food, slaughtering farm animals for food, or even engaging in defensive warfare. Show me the "Hunter-Gatherer" video game where you get points for bringing down a buck or bagging a load of duck. If such a thing even exists, it does not figure into this equation. Nor do the war-simulation strategy games where you role play a General assembling and commanding forces on the ground.

This is about television and video games that glorify criminal violence in all of its forms. Criminal violence. Criminality. Breaking the laws of your own society, as well as the moral code of civilization.

Life is full of adventure, excitement, inspiration, cooperation, conflict, competition, and all the rest of it, all of which can be used as the templates for fictional dramas and games, that have nothing to do with endlessly fantasizing about and repeat-practicing at engaging in violent criminal behavior.

The onus ought to be on the defenders of violent entertainment to justify its very existence. Why do they like violent computer games and television? Because they're fun? FUN?!! What kind of f***ed-up mindset has "fun" with that kind of crap? "I have FUN slaughtering people on the small screen!" "I get ENJOYMENT out of watching people murder each other on TV!" "It makes me FEEL GOOD to see someone beg for their life and get splattered...." What kind of sick mind and sick culture is that?

At best it could be described as an atavism held over from our days as something lower than chimpanzees. Okay, so where else are we going to stand up for individuals engaging in behavior that, in every reasonable sense, they should have outgrown long ago? Shall we argue that it should be OK for adults to pick their noses in public places because they might have done it when they were kids? Shall we argue that it's OK for adults to deliberately crap in their pants because they did it when they were babies? "The Board meeting shall momentarily adjourn so that the Directors can pick their noses and crap in their pants...." Imagine if that were a commonplace and people tried to defend the practice despite its obvious public health consequences.

The fact that people "like it" is irrelevant. People also "like" crack cocaine, crystal meth, driving while drunk, and so on. And people also "like" driving monster vehicles in the daily stop-and-go, which is presently contributing to the high risk of an enormous systemic collapse in our lifetimes. Shall we give in to every antisocial or psychopathic impulse? Lie, cheat, steal, rape, loot, murder, and pillage, hey it's OK if it makes you feel good, right?

I'll say it again: outlaw violent video games entirely. Grand Theft Auto is not free speech, any more than kiddie porn or shouting "Bomb" in a crowded airport.
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Unread postby bart » Fri 18 Mar 2005, 03:41:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'T')his is about television and video games that glorify criminal violence in all of its forms. Criminal violence. Criminality. Breaking the laws of your own society, as well as the moral code of civilization.
....
The onus ought to be on the defenders of violent entertainment to justify its very existence.

gg3's will be the common sense viewpiont in a few years. Our ancestors will look at our violent TV and video games as we look upon the Roman games of blood and slaughter in the Colisseum.
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Unread postby skiwi » Fri 25 Mar 2005, 06:21:35

Mass killers, it's all about drugs and mind control
More on Weise ... check out his web 'animation'

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We have tried with our first creatures but we could not make them venerate us.
So let us try to make obedient respectful beings who shall
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