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Will it work?

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Will it work?

Unread postby allenwrench » Fri 18 Jul 2008, 15:04:46

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 165441.htm


Or should this town do it right and take themselves off grid to get a true pix of PO and wind mix?
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Re: Will it work?

Unread postby VMarcHart » Fri 18 Jul 2008, 15:52:31

They shouldn't take themselves off the grid. I wouldn't.

If they have means to store the energy, it will probably work. But energy storage is tricky.
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Re: Will it work?

Unread postby steam_cannon » Fri 18 Jul 2008, 21:32:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('VMarcHart', 'T')hey shouldn't take themselves off the grid. I wouldn't.

If they have means to store the energy, it will probably work.
But energy storage is tricky.
Tricky, definitely tricky. But there have been some success stories
using technologies like flow batteries so maybe not as tricky as it
used to be. It's at least plausible...

Image

Flow batteries, cheaper than lead acid, large scale storage
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic35412.html

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('metaefficient', '
')Australian Island Using Flow Batteries To Store Wind Power
April 5th, 2007

Image

King Island is a small island off the Australian coast, near Tasmania.
King Island isn’t connected to the mainland power grid, and apart
from its own small wind farm it relied for a long time on diesel
generators for its electricity. That changed in 2003 when the
local utility company installed a mammoth rechargeable battery
which ensures that as little wind energy as possible goes to waste.
When the wind is strong, the wind farm’s turbines generate more
electricity than the islanders need. The battery is there to soak up
the excess and pump it out again on days when the wind fades and
the turbines’ output falls. The battery installation has almost
halved the quantity of fuel burnt by the diesel generators,
saving not only money but also at least 2000 tonnes of carbon
dioxide emissions each year...

http://tinyurl.com/2fztt6

So as you can see, flow batteries are a technology worth keeping
an eye on. They have been shown to amplify the usefulness of
unreliable technologies like solar and wind. With King Island, if
they doubled their wind installation, it seems reasonable to
consider that they could supply their current electric needs with
importing almost no fuel. This is not to say king island could grow
their energy needs without end. But that this technology should be
considered as it may be a useful tool for transition and sustainability.

Some things to ask next might be, how recyclable/serviceable are
the battery fluids... In fact there are a lot of questions to ask, but
this looks like a technology worth investing time asking questions.
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Re: Will it work?

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Fri 18 Jul 2008, 21:44:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', 'T')ricky, definitely tricky. But there have been some success stories
using technologies like flow batteries so maybe not as tricky as it
used to be. It's at least plausible...


Chatanooga, TN had a solution that always seemed very reasonable to me. They pump water up a big hill during periods of low demand. Then when demand increases, the pump becomes a generator and they let the water come back down and basically generate hydroelectric. It seems like a dirt simple system that could easily be employed elsewhere.
"We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
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Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
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Re: Will it work?

Unread postby VMarcHart » Fri 18 Jul 2008, 22:03:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', 'T')ricky, definitely tricky. But there have been some success stories using technologies like flow batteries so maybe not as tricky as it used to be. It's at least plausible...
Small loads have it going for them. Perhaps it will work in Missouri too.
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Re: Will it work?

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Fri 18 Jul 2008, 22:22:53

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raccoon_Mo ... rage_Plant
"We were standing on the edges
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Re: Will it work?

Unread postby HEADER_RACK » Fri 18 Jul 2008, 22:38:14

Curious on how much energy it takes to pump the water up the mountain compared to the energy released from the water coming down the mountain?
Nothing is more dangerous than a man with nothing left to lose but has everything left to gain.
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Re: Will it work?

Unread postby steam_cannon » Fri 18 Jul 2008, 23:00:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', ' ')http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raccoon_Mo ... rage_Plant
Yeah that's a nice solution. A couple other good ones are flywheels and
compressed air storage.

http://www.dg.history.vt.edu/ch2/storage.html
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Re: Will it work?

Unread postby cube » Sat 19 Jul 2008, 06:15:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('allenwrench', 'h')ttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080715165441.htm


Or should this town do it right and take themselves off grid to get a true pix of PO and wind mix?
It makes no sense to be off grid unless you absolutely have to. Aside from requiring batteries, you'd also need a bunch of fancy electronics like a DC to AC converter. (convert DC voltage of battery to AC voltage for residential use) That's not cheap.
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Re: Will it work?

Unread postby cube » Sat 19 Jul 2008, 06:31:30

I have an idea.

Why not just get the power directly from the grid?
The advantage of this is obvious, you get a stable supply of electricity.
As for the windmills, just hook it up to the grid and sell electricity to the utility company at all times---> let them deal with the wild fluctuations of power produced from the windmills.
Is there a law against this or is this basically how the system works?
If yes then an augment can be said you're NOT relying on windmills you're just in the business of selling fluctuating electricity to the utility company.

anyone know how the system works?
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Re: Will it work?

Unread postby allenwrench » Sat 19 Jul 2008, 10:22:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('allenwrench', 'h')ttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080715165441.htm


Or should this town do it right and take themselves off grid to get a true pix of PO and wind mix?
It makes no sense to be off grid unless you absolutely have to. Aside from requiring batteries, you'd also need a bunch of fancy electronics like a DC to AC converter. (convert DC voltage of battery to AC voltage for residential use) That's not cheap.


To go off grid removes the crutch.

Lets see what solar and wind does on its own.

The water pumping idea is fine for those with hills, but flat regions will have a tough time storing power.

I hear people talking about wind and solar all the time, but to me they are supplemental power only and not UPS's.

I would like to see how a town does on them alone with no cushion...the truth will stand on its own one way or another.

If they are afraid to get off grid then keep data when they need grid and when they don't. What's the percentage that the wind and solar don't cut it? All important questions to know,
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Re: Will it work?

Unread postby VMarcHart » Sat 19 Jul 2008, 11:37:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'I')s there a law against this or is this basically how the system works? If yes then an augment can be said you're NOT relying on windmills you're just in the business of selling fluctuating electricity to the utility company. Anyone know how the system works?
I know how the system works, it would be too complicated to explain here. Yes, you can set yourself up as a generator and sell (excess) energy into the grid. Hundreds of generators do that. It's not trivial, and heavily ruled by economics.
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Re: Will it work?

Unread postby yesplease » Sat 19 Jul 2008, 17:49:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', 'C')hatanooga, TN had a solution that always seemed very reasonable to me. They pump water up a big hill during periods of low demand. Then when demand increases, the pump becomes a generator and they let the water come back down and basically generate hydroelectric. It seems like a dirt simple system that could easily be employed elsewhere.
It is more or less. What's interesting is that a company in Germany demonstrated on a small scale given similar proportions to their current hydroelectric pumped storage that a 100% renewable grid could work. Any excess electricity via wind/solar is first used to store energy via hydro, then it could be used for creating hydrogen which can be used later, albeit at a fraction of the available energy. The advantage the US has over Germany IMO is that a greater portion of it's electricity production is via hydroelectric pumped storage, so we more or less have bigger batteries in that respect. With the same proportion of biogas we would have more stability or we could reduce the number of required biogas plants. Being a larger nation, we also have access to many different regions which can have different weather patterns. If the wind isn't blowing someplace, the sun may likely be shining someplace else, and alla that. Here's a news clip on the idea.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Professor Membrane', ' ')Not now son, I'm making ... TOAST!
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Re: Will it work?

Unread postby vilemerchant » Sun 20 Jul 2008, 09:05:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HEADER_RACK', 'C')urious on how much energy it takes to pump the water up the mountain compared to the energy released from the water coming down the mountain?


It doesn't matter how much energy it takes to pump the water up the mountain, as it was 'waste' excess energy that wasn't need anyhow. Water stored high up the mountain basically acts like a battery to be used later, except it's not overly expensive and doesn't wear out after a few years.
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Re: Will it work?

Unread postby Dezakin » Mon 21 Jul 2008, 17:50:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vilemerchant', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HEADER_RACK', 'C')urious on how much energy it takes to pump the water up the mountain compared to the energy released from the water coming down the mountain?


It doesn't matter how much energy it takes to pump the water up the mountain, as it was 'waste' excess energy that wasn't need anyhow. Water stored high up the mountain basically acts like a battery to be used later, except it's not overly expensive and doesn't wear out after a few years.

Pumped storage is 80-90% efficient IIRC.
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Re: Will it work?

Unread postby jbeckton » Wed 23 Jul 2008, 12:27:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '
')Chatanooga, TN had a solution that always seemed very reasonable to me. They pump water up a big hill during periods of low demand. Then when demand increases, the pump becomes a generator and they let the water come back down and basically generate hydroelectric. It seems like a dirt simple system that could easily be employed elsewhere.


I agree but now we are talking about locations now dependent not only on wind availability, but also storage availability which means you need a water source AND you need a space to store the water that MUST be above the source. The wind turbines themselves have a small footprint and crops can be planted around them, the entire flood plain could only serve 1 purpose which can only make it less attractive to investors.

I think the answer lies in building wind farms primarily in these ideal locations and sending the power where it needs to be (HVDC) rather than trying to make to technology fit the location where the power is needed.

The square peg in the round hole analogy comes to mind.
Those that cannot do..... teach. Those that cannot teach......teach gym.-Jack black
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Re: Will it work?

Unread postby jbeckton » Wed 23 Jul 2008, 12:34:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('allenwrench', '
')I would like to see how a town does on them alone with no cushion...the truth will stand on its own one way or another.


Anyone who wishes to use wind/solar as a primary power source will need to make demand side management an intregral part of their philosophy. I don't know if we are there yet, thats why I champion nuclear power for the transition period.
Those that cannot do..... teach. Those that cannot teach......teach gym.-Jack black
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Re: Will it work?

Unread postby VMarcHart » Wed 23 Jul 2008, 14:54:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jbeckton', '.')..the entire flood plain could only serve 1 purpose which can only make it less attractive to investors.
Potable water, irrigation water, cooling water, fishing, recreation...
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Re: Will it work?

Unread postby jbeckton » Wed 23 Jul 2008, 19:45:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('VMarcHart', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jbeckton', '.')..the entire flood plain could only serve 1 purpose which can only make it less attractive to investors.
Potable water, irrigation water, cooling water, fishing, recreation...


You are going to rely on a flood plain for potable water, cooling water, irrigation water?

I'd rethink that.

Also are the people going to go w/o power to keep the fish alive?
Those that cannot do..... teach. Those that cannot teach......teach gym.-Jack black
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Re: Will it work?

Unread postby VMarcHart » Thu 24 Jul 2008, 06:51:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jbeckton', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('VMarcHart', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jbeckton', '.')..the entire flood plain could only serve 1 purpose which can only make it less attractive to investors.
Potable water, irrigation water, cooling water, fishing, recreation...
You are going to rely on a flood plain for potable water, cooling water, irrigation water? I'd rethink that. Also are the people going to go w/o power to keep the fish alive?
We already do that right now in the US. Most of WAPA's UGPR's dams are multi-functional. You should see the fight over the diverse interests/applications.
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