Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

"Oil price drops by most in 17 years"

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: "Oil drops by most in 17 years"

Unread postby oneplain1 » Tue 15 Jul 2008, 20:14:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('alokin', 't')he story tells more about the state of the US economy than of oil. look at bloomberg: bloomberg

That is exactly what was running thru my mind this afternoon while working, the volatile swings up and down in price of just about anything you can name is very unnerving. Truly today's actions are a snapshot of the times we are facing. G-men from the top down trying to offer us kool-aid, stock market (our money) wildly trying to find its value, oil trying to find its value, and everybody walking around wondering WTF is going on!
User avatar
oneplain1
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun 18 Nov 2007, 04:00:00

Re: "Oil drops by most in 17 years"

Unread postby DantesPeak » Tue 15 Jul 2008, 20:23:24

US oil inventories are going to continue their decline the next few weeks to low levels. One bad Gulf of Mexico tropical storm and there won't be enough oil to go around the US.

It's hard for me to imagine this is the beginning of any major price drop.
It's already over, now it's just a matter of adjusting.
User avatar
DantesPeak
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 6277
Joined: Sat 23 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Location: New Jersey

Re: "Oil drops by most in 17 years"

Unread postby shortonoil » Tue 15 Jul 2008, 21:49:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Hester', 'S')ometimes man, this place. Just gets a little too into it's own world.

From the opening bell the NYSE dropped 136 points in an hour. That drop took the Big Board through the critical technical resistance point of 10,983. The next stop down is 7,400 and every program trader in the world was ringing the bell.

Then miraculously crude fell 9.50 in 10 minutes. Someone REAL big dumped one hell of a pile of futures, at one horrendous loss, to stop that fall. If anyone believes that all of that was co-incidence, go long Lunar Blue Cheese. The Rat from Alpha Centuri just landed there and supply is going to be short demand.
User avatar
shortonoil
False ETP Prophet
False ETP Prophet
 
Posts: 7132
Joined: Thu 02 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: VA USA

Re: "Oil drops by most in 17 years"

Unread postby DantesPeak » Tue 15 Jul 2008, 22:09:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Hogan', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DantesPeak', 'U')S oil inventories are going to continue their decline the next few weeks to low levels. One bad Gulf of Mexico tropical storm and there won't be enough oil to go around the US. It's hard for me to imagine this is the beginning of any major price drop.
Hey DP, I am wondering how close they are getting to MOL. Didn't we calculate that the MOL is around 285 million barrels? Seems like inventories are continuing to drop:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')upplies of crude declined 2.2 million barrels in the week ended July 11 from 293.9 million
link

The official MOL is 270 million, but that is from a dated report. The figure may be closer to 285 million, and as shortonoil previously noted, would seasonally fluctate.

My WAG is falling below 285 million would result at least in some kind of supply disruption somewhere in the US.
It's already over, now it's just a matter of adjusting.
User avatar
DantesPeak
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 6277
Joined: Sat 23 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Location: New Jersey
Top

Re: "Oil drops by most in 17 years"

Unread postby alokin » Tue 15 Jul 2008, 22:35:01

shortonoil, who do you think is able and willing to sell so much futures to stop the stock market to break down? And stupidly asked, do you think if oil is cheaper the market would be stabilized (and why can buyers believe in such a sudden drop?).

I read on bloomberg that oil is steady now.

This all is very much like in the theory that if the plateau hits prices get more volatile. And even that I only watch this for about 10 month now prices got much more volatile recently.
User avatar
alokin
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1255
Joined: Fri 24 Aug 2007, 03:00:00

Re: "Oil drops by most in 17 years"

Unread postby shortonoil » Tue 15 Jul 2008, 22:35:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DantesPeak', ']')The official MOL is 270 million, but that is from a dated report. The figure may be closer to 285 million, and as shortonoil previously noted, would seasonally fluctate. My WAG is falling below 285 million would result at least in some kind of supply disruption somewhere in the US.

Unfortunately, we don’t have as good a handle on the MOL for crude stocks as we did for gasoline last year. 193 brought shortages in the Midwest. But it has to be above the 270 figure because demand is so much higher than what is was when that report was prepared.

It could be as high as 290, if so, we will known in a couple of weeks as refineries utilization falls. Not because of equipment problems, but because they have run out of crude. When we see utilization at 85% we will know we have hit the wall.
User avatar
shortonoil
False ETP Prophet
False ETP Prophet
 
Posts: 7132
Joined: Thu 02 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: VA USA
Top

Re: "Oil drops by most in 17 years"

Unread postby shortonoil » Tue 15 Jul 2008, 22:56:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('alokin', 's')hortonoil, who do you think is able and willing to sell so much futures to stop the stock market to break down? And stupidly asked, do you think if oil is cheaper the market would be stabilized (and why can buyers believe in such a sudden drop?). I read on bloomberg that oil is steady now.

The first question is easy. GS
If oil is artificially kept lower it would stabilize the markets for maybe a month. As the available energy to the economy declines the economy will decline. No power on earth could keep it boosted for much longer than that. All the cash available from the SWF and China would only compensate for the loss in US housing for only about two years. With the insolvency of the banking system thrown in, less than a year.

Oil was steady this afternoon, at 136+. When the crude inventory report comes out tomorrow, thing could very well change, very rapidly.
User avatar
shortonoil
False ETP Prophet
False ETP Prophet
 
Posts: 7132
Joined: Thu 02 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: VA USA
Top

Re: "Oil drops by most in 17 years"

Unread postby yesplease » Wed 16 Jul 2008, 06:29:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', 'P')erhaps if "record high" was accompanied by "OMFG!!1!11! - like higher than it's ever been!," I'd trust that the reaction by J6P would be on a similar scale as he will undoubtedly express with "drops by most in 17 years." Hell, perhaps it isn't worth my arguing about... :oops:
I think we may just look at stuff w/ somethingoranother colored glasses, and I can't say I ain't as guilty as anyone else. I suppose the only way to know for certain would be to assess the impact of how people view time periods. Is "ever" seen as more or less powerful than a couple decades?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Professor Membrane', ' ')Not now son, I'm making ... TOAST!
User avatar
yesplease
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3765
Joined: Tue 03 Oct 2006, 03:00:00
Top

Re: "Oil drops by most in 17 years"

Unread postby Ferretlover » Wed 16 Jul 2008, 06:51:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', ' ')I can't say I ain't as guilty as anyone else. I suppose the only way to know for certain would be to assess the impact of how people view time periods. Is "ever" seen as more or less powerful than a couple decades?

Right off the bat, I'd say one of the factors would be age. If you are 50, you see things a lot different than if you were 20. :)
"Open the gates of hell!" ~Morgan Freeman's character in the movie, Olympus Has Fallen.
Ferretlover
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 5852
Joined: Wed 13 Jun 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Hundreds of miles further inland
Top

Re: "Oil drops by most in 17 years"

Unread postby ThereWillBeMoreBlood » Wed 16 Jul 2008, 07:43:11

You've gotta be kidding me. Seems like every day for the past six months we've been hearing/reading news stories on a daily basis about how oil has set a new record, and all of a sudden MSM reporting on oil's biggest drop in 17 years is some sort of cornucopian conspiracy? This site gets better by the day.
User avatar
ThereWillBeMoreBlood
Wood
Wood
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu 03 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Colorado Springs, CO

Re: "Oil drops by most in 17 years"

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Wed 16 Jul 2008, 09:16:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ThereWillBeMoreBlood', 'Y')ou've gotta be kidding me. Seems like every day for the past six months we've been hearing/reading news stories on a daily basis about how oil has set a new record, and all of a sudden MSM reporting on oil's biggest drop in 17 years is some sort of cornucopian conspiracy? This site gets better by the day.

I'm just not a big fan of qualifiers, if they're used selectively and inconsistently.

No conspiracy here - that's all in your head. But thanks for playing!
"It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."

George Carlin
User avatar
emersonbiggins
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 5150
Joined: Sun 10 Jul 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Dallas
Top

Re: "Oil drops by most in 17 years"

Unread postby Micki » Wed 16 Jul 2008, 09:48:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou've gotta be kidding me. Seems like every day for the past six months we've been hearing/reading news stories on a daily basis about how oil has set a new record, and all of a sudden MSM reporting on oil's biggest drop in 17 years is some sort of cornucopian conspiracy? This site gets better by the day.

15th of July will from now on be celebrated as Plunge Protection day.

Seriously, this was tape painting of the most blatant kind.
But it was easy. So many traders sit on profits. Just apply the right kind of pressure and the black boxes start yelling SELL SELL.

I've been watching same stuff on the gold market for a few years now. Come options expiry week, Bernanke makes a speach, Paulson says something, bad employment data, high inflation figures. Gold always goes into sell mode.
Micki
 
Top

Re: "Oil drops by most in 17 years"

Unread postby shortonoil » Wed 16 Jul 2008, 10:07:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', 'I')'m just not a big fan of qualifiers, if they're used selectively and inconsistently. No conspiracy here - that's all in your head. But thanks for playing!

Perception trumps reality - until reality catches up!
User avatar
shortonoil
False ETP Prophet
False ETP Prophet
 
Posts: 7132
Joined: Thu 02 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: VA USA
Top

Re: "Oil drops by most in 17 years"

Unread postby Olaf » Wed 16 Jul 2008, 10:44:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Hogan', 'D')antesPeak, by the way, I think I found you a new avatar:

[flash width=399 height=278]http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20080713/capt.cps.mze13.130708154802.photo00.photo.default-512x357.jpg?x=400&y=278&sig=yJUHsKvxqO_jrTSEB1K10Q--[/flash]

That Iranian oil worker looks like someone out of 1970's Buck Rogers. :-D


Master Blaster runs Barter Town!
Olaf
 
Top

Re: "Oil drops by most in 17 years"

Unread postby Graeme » Fri 18 Jul 2008, 01:20:22

Betting on Oil's Return to Earth

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hen will oil's visit to the stratosphere end? Almost to a man (and woman), the oil watchers of Wall Street say the question cannot be answered, even though the price per barrel slid more than $10 on July 15 and 16. There are just too many factors propping up crude even to contemplate a dramatic decline.

But Edward L. Morse, Lehman Brothers' (LEH) chief energy economist, says the oil bubble (he dubs it Oil Dot-com) will burst by New Year's. Not only that, he predicts a plunge to about $93 a barrel. Pretty audacious as prognostications go, at a time when Goldman Sachs (GS) foresees $200 a barrel. To that Morse just replies that he's the one talking sense. "We are trying to keep our heads in a wild market," he says.

Morse is the most prominent oil contrarian on Wall Street. Before joining Lehman two years ago, he taught international monetary policy at Princeton University, was Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for international energy policy in the Carter Administration, co-founded consultants PFC Energy, and was publisher of Petroleum Intelligence Weekly. "He likes to be a provocateur," says Frank Verrastro, director of energy at the Center for Strategic & International Studies in Washington, who served with Morse under Carter.

The 66-year-old Morse gives several reasons for being bearish. First, oil has long been cyclical. Why should the pendulum stop now? Second, Morse thinks China's go-for-broke industrial economy is slowing, leading to a "radical" reduction in its oil demand after the summer. Third, he foresees a big buildup in oil inventories this fall and, longer term, a greater flow of crude as new deepwater drilling rigs reach equipment-starved producers in the Gulf of Mexico. Finally, 13 million barrels a day of new refinery capacity will be available by 2013, making hard-to-process crudes more marketable.


businessweek
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us.
User avatar
Graeme
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13258
Joined: Fri 04 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: New Zealand
Top

Re: "Oil drops by most in 17 years"

Unread postby Micki » Fri 18 Jul 2008, 01:33:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')orse thinks China's go-for-broke industrial economy is slowing, leading to a "radical" reduction in its oil demand after the summer.

For now I take issue with the above. Growth is slowing, it is not negative. So oil demand should continue to increase albeit at a slower speed.

The whole talk about trend reversal is quite premature for the simple reasons that $150 resistance was to be expected.
Heck even I predicted this on 3rd of July (here). It is really simple, too many have made too much money too easily. Start a sell off and traders rush to exists to take their profits.

Trends rarely change unless there is an underlying fundamental change. I just don't see that now.
Secondly, the timing of the whole selloff seems so sus it suggests it was tape painting excercise together with normal selloff.
How low can it go??? Depends on if government can start selling SPR oil without the market knowing. One has to wonder if they can attempt leasing of SPR oil to traders who then short the market like they do with gold. That could make things look really good for a little while. If this happend I would probably step over into the doomer camp as the long term implications could be horrendeous.
Micki
 
Top

U.S. Fuel Use Drops Most in 17 Years

Unread postby yesplease » Fri 18 Jul 2008, 11:56:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'J')uly 18 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. fuel consumption fell 3 percent in the first half of 2008, the biggest decline for the period in 17 years, as high prices and a slowing economy curbed demand, an oil industry report today showed.
[...]
Crude oil imports fell 2.5 percent from a year ago, and gasoline imports dropped about 10 percent, the report said.


Link.

Opinion- A 10% drop in gasoline imports! I know some on the forums believe that people will continue to use gas at every increasing rates no matter what the price, but the American consumer is not immune to higher oil prices. Puts oil's jumpy price into perspective I guess since everyone seems to be wondering what demand will do. The biggest question is with current projections (via TOD) and prices, what will the world's largest per capita oil consumer do? If behavior is similar to the last time oil prices were this high, we may see a ~10+% drop in consumption before we see peak.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Professor Membrane', ' ')Not now son, I'm making ... TOAST!
User avatar
yesplease
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3765
Joined: Tue 03 Oct 2006, 03:00:00
Top

PreviousNext

Return to Open Topic Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron