[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'C')urrently I'm leaning toward my original plan which was to not talk to them about it, but to try to prepare for the possibility that they may end up here at our place at some point.


I really appreciate everyone's input, it's helping me think about this much more clearly.

[MD]

The worse things get, the more I pour on a positive message of action and change.

Three years ago I was warning that things were going to get bad.

Guess what?...Things are bad and everyone knows it.

Now I'm offering solutions. Suffering may visit my area anyway, but there's nothing I can do about that.

"Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events."
Robert A. Heinlein

[MD]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'I')t sounds to me like the time might be more productively spent by just enjoying being together as much as possible without worrying about trying to educate them...

[kpeavey]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 't')ry to prepare for the possibility that they may end up here at our place at some point.

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MD', 'N')ow I'm offering solutions. Suffering may visit my area anyway, but there's nothing I can do about that.

[wisconsin_cur]

This week I learned of a series of conversations that had taken place about me, of which I was neither present for nor aware of.

In the beginning one person was saying, "Oh he has just never been through a recession before. Once you get through one you learn it is not that bad." (meaning I should not be "freaking out")

In the most recent it had become, "Looks like he was right about real estate... what if he is right about oil also?"

Before I knew about the conversation that person told me that this would be a good time to buy a lot of food for the winter.

The other member of the conversation has since come on board 100%.

Events move people. I would float the idea and see where it lands

[mystiek]

Hi Ludi!
Family members can be really tough. Even if its not peak oil discussions. My husband and I have a couple of family members who are having it rough and despite our repeated invitation to help them out, they refused. We just tell them each time we are with them or when we talk to them on the phone, that we love them and they always have an invitation to stay with us. My husband has pretty much concluded that when it gets bad enough in their eyes then they will come for help. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. I also keep them in my prayers. I have resolved that they are in God's hands.

[Hagakure_Leofman]

My feeling at this point Ludi is that peak oil is so obvious that it's probably best to allow your family to deal with, and approach the issues in their own ways.

It probably won't help them to share what you know about 'peak oil' at this point. We've reached the point now, where the consequences of resource depletion are commonly experienced in the west, and having knowledge as to the 'why', isn't necessarily beneficial.

Some people don't like to know why. They just like to deal with the world has they find it at any one time. As it changes, they adapt. Knowing what's coming up can be a source of unproductive anxiety - the kind your sister suffered from. You're obviously the other kind, who seek out the 'why' and like to prepare yourself for future events, rather than just dealing with the present.

Letting them know you're there, available to help them is more productive than shocking them with your 'inside information'.

It's an extraordinary direction that civilization is now taking. For some, where we're headed is too much 'change' to process mentally all at once.

[Cashmere]

Ludi and I don't agree on several things, but I think Ludi is great.

I just hate to see Ludi expend her resources on those who cannot be saved.

It's like that scene in Aliens when they first encounter the baddies and, right before she gets onto the transport, the hispanic marine shoots up an alien and the acid blood gets all over another marine and then that marine, her close friend, is grabbed by an alien and pulled away and she tries to go after him . . .

. . . and two other soldiers pull her into the transport while saying, "he's gone, you can't save him now."

I'm not in charge of triage?

In my world I am.

I have no doubt that when things get ugly I'll get a dozen or more requests for help, but I won't be able to help.

So I'm already prepared for that.

All of the people who disbelieved you will come to you.

Will you take them all in and starve with them?

What's the point in that.

The unbelievers will have the distinct advantage of meeting our Creator before us.

It would be wrong of me to join them before I, myself, am called.

[mos6507]

We're all going to have to deal with this as time goes on. I've had to use this forum like a support group in lieu of my family and I'm fed up with it.

I'm about to have "the talk" with my mom and dad in a couple months too. I am going to sock it to them, no holds barred. Whatever happens after, happens. It's pathetic not being able to express yourself with your own family.

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cashmere', 'I')'m not in charge of triage?

[turner]

Ludi,

I have made various attempts at talking to family and friends about peak oil and whilst they have listened they have made the predictable responses in terms of timing and technology solutions. I don't think there is much point in talking further, they need to read for themselves. The trick is how to get them started.

I am currently thinking that I might ask them to read some of the Hirsch Report (I'll highlight important points to reduce the reading burden). As a starting point it is useful because it has been requested by the US Dept of Energy which in non-believers eyes lends a great deal of credibility (ie it's not coming from a doomer position). The report points out that there are varying opinions on when the 'peak' will come but even the most optimistic timescales are not that far away. It also talks about mitigation and suggests that we would need 20 years to be well prepared. Adding the optimistic view and the mitigation time should make any reader sit up and take notice. Hopefully, their concern will be raised and they might go on to read further. I think that is all I/you can do. If that doesn't stir them nothing we can say will either.

You may not think this will work for you and your family but I thought it was an option to consider. Good luck.

[Ludi]

Thank you, turner. I don't want to worry them, I think they have enough stress right now. I've pretty much decided to let them go on with their lives as they are now, and if things get bad enough for them to notice on their own, we might talk about it then, if they bring it up.

[Waterthrush]

Bring it up! It's an absolutely riveting topic, and I think it is helpful to people to try to understand what is happening. Older people in particular have experienced hard times and know how to deal with them. My folks are 87 and 81; I talk about Peak Oil all the time with them and have for quite a while. They are mentally prepared, and I always remind them that they are better than most others at economizing and stretching resources. We have "what-if'd" several scenarios, and they know they can come to me or I to them for a home.

My sister moved from a country home 40 miles out to a development near my folks. I supported this (even though I not-so-secretly coveted her ten acres) because she and I knew that she was not going to try her hand at homesteading. ( I tried bringing up chickens to her several times!) Her transportation needs have been greatly reduced for the time being.

My various nieces and nephews have heard the term from me even if they haven't heeded my words of wisdom. (My Christmas peak oil talk, "Do you really want to shovel $80 into that gas tank every week," went unheeded, but the current situation can't come as a surprise to them.

There are many ways to bring the topic up that can be adapted to the type of personality you are dealing with. It's an interesting conversation. It's not the first time in the history of humanity that people have struggled with issues of scarcity. Sheesh, that's our human history. This isn't a meteor falling on us. Peak Oil has causes and consequences.

Above all, people need to know that this crisis is not going away and that coping with it isn't an option, but rather a necessity. There are plenty of ways to express this reality more gently, though I would think the financial costs are making gentle suggestions less necessary - the 2 x 4 s are coming courtesy of the real world.

[Ludi]

If my family were healthy mentally and physically, it would seem more possible that this kind of discussion would be beneficial, but they are messed up..

We did talk a little tiny bit about energy when my folks visited last, so, it seems its not an entirely taboo subject. But it's hard to have any kind of serious heart-to-heart discussion.

[Waterthrush]

Ludi, I don't think you should fear having this conversation. You of all people are kind and considerate and can "pitch" the topic to your audience.

There are so many ways - the "I wonder" approach, as in, "I wonder if Peak Oil is here." "I wonder if I am doing enough." "Did you hear about Mercedes-Benz dropping the gasoline-powered car, I wonder if other companies will do the same."

The historical approach - "Didn't this area used to be served by an interurban? I suppose that could be tried again." "I remember when people didn't travel by air so much. Only a few flights served our town." "Our county was laid out so travel to the county seat could be accomplished in one day by horse." "Remember when we used to hang clothes out on the clothesline - that was solar power!"

The hopeful approach - "I think people will be much better off if the pace of life slows." "I'm already seeing traffic slow down on the highway." "I saw such a productive tiny garden yesterday." "Did you know we had a beautiful park only 10 miles away?"

The action approach, "Let's take a walk instead of driving somewhere." "I'm serving a local foods meal tonight," "We don't need to go out, let's have fun trying a cocktail party at home." "80 degrees is really comfortable inside the house."

I suppose the ultimate doomer conversation about zombie hordes would be a downer, but if that scenario plays out, only a few of us (Specop, I'm thinking of you!) will be left anyway. Although, Specop, I was thinking of you on the male paramilitary delusions thread as the one who would step up and defend the community ...

I don't find the conversation nearly so hard as actually doing something about it, and that goes for me as well! Right now I should be out turning my compost pile to see if there is soil yet, as I really need some - but it's hot ...

Ludi, treat this as an opportunity to talk about something really interesting. It's a conversation, not a formal speech (yet). I want to hear how it goes - and I pledge to try to have similar conversations regularly (Although my most recent attempt, with my ex-boss, turned up only the usual "someone will think of something, they always do" formula. And he has two late-teen sons who are driving - and two or three mortgages. I asked him if he had had ANY conversations with them about the effects of fuel prices on future events. He hadn't. But he will!

[pigleg]

You know what? I think we can ALL finally talk about it! There's enough supporting evidence in the daily news that even regular joes are starting to notice something is wrong.

5 years ago I had a helluva time, I might as well have been talking about alien abductions - but now even my wife is starting to believe me!

Of course, there are still lots of other distractions - could be those darn oil speculators, the chinese, mideast strife or whatever...

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'W')e're all going to have to deal with this as time goes on. I've had to use this forum like a support group in lieu of my family and I'm fed up with it.

I'm about to have "the talk" with my mom and dad in a couple months too. I am going to sock it to them, no holds barred. Whatever happens after, happens. It's pathetic not being able to express yourself with your own family.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Waterthrush', 'B')ring it up! It's an absolutely riveting topic, and I think it is helpful to people to try to understand what is happening. Older people in particular have experienced hard times and know how to deal with them. My folks are 87 and 81; I talk about Peak Oil all the time with them and have for quite a while. They are mentally prepared, and I always remind them that they are better than most others at economizing and stretching resources. We have "what-if'd" several scenarios, and they know they can come to me or I to them for a home.

My sister moved from a country home 40 miles out to a development near my folks. I supported this (even though I not-so-secretly coveted her ten acres) because she and I knew that she was not going to try her hand at homesteading. ( I tried bringing up chickens to her several times!) Her transportation needs have been greatly reduced for the time being.

My various nieces and nephews have heard the term from me even if they haven't heeded my words of wisdom. (My Christmas peak oil talk, "Do you really want to shovel $80 into that gas tank every week," went unheeded, but the current situation can't come as a surprise to them.

There are many ways to bring the topic up that can be adapted to the type of personality you are dealing with. It's an interesting conversation. It's not the first time in the history of humanity that people have struggled with issues of scarcity. Sheesh, that's our human history. This isn't a meteor falling on us. Peak Oil has causes and consequences.

Above all, people need to know that this crisis is not going away and that coping with it isn't an option, but rather a necessity. There are plenty of ways to express this reality more gently, though I would think the financial costs are making gentle suggestions less necessary - the 2 x 4 s are coming courtesy of the real world.