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'The Culture of Make Believe' Derrick Jensen

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Book: "The Culture of Make Believe" by Derrick Jensen

Unread postby paimei01 » Sun 29 Jun 2008, 11:23:53

Anybody read this book ?

It's very powerful, talks about our civilization and the destruction we bring to the world and to ourselves. Boring description ? The book is anything but that, I cannot even read it for a long time I must stop because I'm feeling nauseous.

There is another thread I have opened with "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn
Reading books I am. Soon I will know everything ! :)
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/
One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough homes ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game". Now it's "Crisis" time !Too many houses! Yes, we are insane!
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Re: "The Culture of Make Believe" by Derrick Jense

Unread postby jdumars » Sun 29 Jun 2008, 11:31:34

Although it's an incredibly painful read, I think this should be required reading for everyone. If you're going to benefit from all the horrors and atrocities committed on your behalf, you should at least know what they are.

I would recommend his most recent books Endgame Vol. 1 and 2 to anyone who wants to actually DO something about all this.

But sadly, most won't.
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Re: "The Culture of Make Believe" by Derrick Jense

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 29 Jun 2008, 11:42:41

I have only read Jensen's "A Language Older than Words" as all his books, very painful.
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Re: "The Culture of Make Believe" by Derrick Jense

Unread postby Devin » Sun 29 Jun 2008, 13:06:19

I have serious issues with Derrick Jensen's approach. I feel nauseous as well when I read what he writes, but not because of the supposedly horrible things we're all to blame for -- I feel sick because he's perpetuating the cycle. Life isn't about otherizing people who live in the way that they were brought up to live, starting a war against them or "bringing down civilization" -- which to me, since he's still dependent on civilization for his livelihood, sounds like a rather removed way of discussing suicide.

He writes powerfully, but this is "power over", not "power with". The language is so violently dichotomizing between the abusers and the abused that I don't get the feeling he is able to understand that it's just not that simple. I get a lot of feelings from him but one feeling I do NOT get is empathy -- he lacks compassion for himself and subsequently his father. I read A Language Older Than Words and became extremely agitated when I realized that the book was NOT in fact telling the story of his reconciliation with his father, instead reading like a prosecutor laying charges on someone he is SURE is a criminal.

If it weren't the point, if it were just a side message, the accusations of "GUILTY! GUILTYYYY!" would be tolerable -- but this seems to be a quite central message throughout the thousands of pages he's written. He may have been raped by his father, but honestly I feel like he's raping his readers, particularly the ones susceptible to blaming themselves for things that are not their fault.

Anyway, I don't need messages of guilt-induced violence in my life, and no matter how real the pain and suffering is of those that directly contribute to my well-being, I do not find it useful in the slightest to try to live differently due to guilt. As far as I know it's not even possible. Reading about starving children in africa is completely irrelevant to the construction of an alternative way of living -- it provides no ideas, no inspiration, no examples to go on, no alternative (and hopefully better) story to enact. Information without empowerment is merely a burden.

And I have enough burdens already. I don't need to purchase ~1100 page volumes to accumulate more of them, and I don't recommend it to anyone else to do so either.
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Re: "The Culture of Make Believe" by Derrick Jense

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 29 Jun 2008, 14:11:52

Very insightful criticism, Devin. I agree with your assessment.
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Re: "The Culture of Make Believe" by Derrick Jense

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 29 Jun 2008, 14:13:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdumars', '
')I would recommend his most recent books Endgame Vol. 1 and 2 to anyone who wants to actually DO something about all this.

.


What does Jensen suggest we DO?

Is he modeling this new behavior himself, do you know?
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Re: "The Culture of Make Believe" by Derrick Jense

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 29 Jun 2008, 15:17:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'H')e advocates illegal activity to destroy civilization, Ludi.


Yeah, I'd heard about the blowing up dams thing.

Not very useful suggestions, in my opinion...
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Re: "The Culture of Make Believe" by Derrick Jense

Unread postby jdumars » Sun 29 Jun 2008, 15:19:05

His suggestions as to what to do are contained in Endgame. It could essentially be distilled into:

We must destroy civilization as soon as possible to ensure there is something left for future generations. Every day that this continues, something new is extirpated forever from the planet with the only thing accomplished being the furthering of more destruction.

He has a very good point. Once a species is gone, it's gone. If civilization had been stopped 100 years ago, or 200, how different would our world be now? Would we thank or curse our ancestors? How many more species might still exist?

This argument that people constantly make, invalidating his views because he is still "part of civilization" is patently ridiculous. If you applied this view to all activists, there would be no activist movements. If you applied it to revolutions, they would never have happened. In order to destroy something, you have to engage it. Second, we as individuals, have access to very small amounts of leverage. The amount of water I save in a year (and it's a LOT) is used in a day by your average golf course. It's used in an hour by a power plant. I could use stone tools and live in the woods and ALL of the energy I have saved would be a minuscule drop in the bucket, even compared to one company. Derrick is using the biggest leverage point he has available to him: writing books. His argument ultimately has nothing to do with himself. It has everything to do with future generations, from which we are robbing any semblance of a natural life. No one seems to give one flying fark what kind of world their grandkids' grandkids will live in. Everyone is too busy just trying to keep up and maintain their own privileged status. And, even more damaging is the fact that this status can only exist through the exploitation and abuse of others -- plants, animals, the land. This is all done at a distance and hidden from people, which is the only way it can be allowed to continue. If people really saw it, and thought about what we're doing to future generations, they'd have to accept how unbelievably selfish and childish they are. People believe they are owed all of the trappings of civilization. People believe that all of the "good" things we have as a result of this arrangement are worth the sacrifices of others and future generations. And in a sick turn of irony, people believe works of art, music, technology and such are "gifts" to the future. Well, they are not. They are converting the living systems we and they depend on into dead things. What kind of gift and legacy is that? It's absolutely perverse and insane. But those who question this arrangement, those who dare point out what we are doing are the ones called insane.

If you frame the argument in other terms, it doesn't seem quite so illogical... think of the movie Independence Day, or any other "invasion" movie. The hero fights against the aliens because they are coming into our world and taking away the resources upon which we depend. They are "stealing" from us. How is this different than civilization? It's the invader, scouring every nook and cranny of the world for things it can consume to continue its escalation, growth and progress. Anything or anyone that stands in its way will be destroyed. Life, culture, land, all will be ruthlessly silenced for "the greater good." So just for a moment consider that Derrick and others who realize this are the heroes in the movie. They are fighting on the behalf of the animals, plants, indigenous cultures, and ultimately future generations that are currently defenseless against this maniacal juggernaut. He's asking us to consider what the greater good really is... is it what people think of as progress? Or is it the gift that we can give to future generations -- a world that is more thriving, healthy and natural than the one we live in.
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Re: "The Culture of Make Believe" by Derrick Jense

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 29 Jun 2008, 15:30:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdumars', '
')We must destroy civilization as soon as possible to ensure there is something left for future generations.


But how?
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Re: "The Culture of Make Believe" by Derrick Jense

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sun 29 Jun 2008, 15:33:26

Jensen is evidently a highly regarded author in intellectual circles. Grand Prize winner, 2008 Eric Hoffer Book Award. I think highly of Eric Hoffer, but have to wonder if Eric Hoffer would have thought so highly of Jensen. I don't know, maybe. But times have changed. The sense that industrial civilization has been a selfish disaster is now widespread. But Jensen's notion of deliberate criminal sabotage to bring it down is puerile and irresponsible. Just wait a bit, the problem will sort itself out.
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Re: "The Culture of Make Believe" by Derrick Jense

Unread postby jdumars » Sun 29 Jun 2008, 15:34:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'H')e advocates illegal activity to destroy civilization, Ludi.


Actually, he advocates any action that might help to end civilization, legal or otherwise. If someone chooses to fight civilization through the courts, great! If someone chooses to do so through legal activism great! And so on...

The "blowing up dams" thing is really just an example that helps illustrate the point. The Elwah Dam is a great example of a dam that needs to be destroyed. It's illegal. It single-handedly destroyed one of the most thriving Salmon runs in the continental US, and it's only purpose was to power a sawmill used to process the old growth cut down from the forest that used to surround it. The government has already OK'd its removal. But the owners of the land continue to drag their feet and do nothing. Meanwhile salmon flop against it year after year, dying. It's not some dam, somewhere. It's an actual structure that is killing the biology of an entire watershed for no purpose at all. Even the sawmill is shutdown now.

The fact that all actions that could actually undermine civilization are illegal is no accident. If you look at really oppressive regimes like Nazi Germany, any kind of meaningful dissent was violently stifled. That's how control was maintained. Many people in Germany broke the law to harbor Jews, support the resistance, etc. because they felt morally obligated to, regardless of the law. Sometimes morality is above the law. Sometimes people act in defiance of the status quo because it is the right thing to do.
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Re: "The Culture of Make Believe" by Derrick Jense

Unread postby paimei01 » Sun 29 Jun 2008, 15:39:24

I don't know about the violent destruction of civilization. We would be left with lots of people ready to start all over again the same way. I think it must be done by telling people there is a better way.

Maybe they need to be informed why some crazy guy is blowing up a dam, so they will protect him from the mafia - the state

Don't think it will work ,but it's easy for me to write stuff on the net, recommend books, and speak to people, so I do it
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/
One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough homes ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game". Now it's "Crisis" time !Too many houses! Yes, we are insane!
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Re: "The Culture of Make Believe" by Derrick Jense

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sun 29 Jun 2008, 15:43:42

And jdumars, don't forget one crucial point: Nature, red in tooth and claw. Living beings consume, at least animals do, other living beings, i.e they kill to live. They eat, digest and excrete to live. Humans just got too good at it is all. All we ever did was what Nature told us to do. But the nail that sticks up gets hammered down and life at the top of the food chain is ephemeral. The bigger they are, the harder they fall.
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Re: "The Culture of Make Believe" by Derrick Jense

Unread postby jdumars » Sun 29 Jun 2008, 15:43:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'B')ut Jensen's notion of deliberate criminal sabotage to bring it down is puerile and irresponsible. Just wait a bit, the problem will sort itself out.


See above.

In terms of "the problem sorting itself out" -- my question is at what cost? Literally every day this continues, at least 100 species are made extinct. If an axe murder was loose in your house and had just chopped up one of your family members and was headed to the room of the next one, would you just throw up your hands and say "ah well, he'll die of old age or cancer or something one of these days." Or, would you grab the .45 out of the night stand and kill the farker?

In terms of how to stop it... no one knows. For my part, I am trying to help others examine their own lifestyles, teach people about wild edibles, stop the use of industrial agriculture in my area, and so on. I'm not blowing up anything, because for me, I can accomplish a lot more even within the confines of the law. Now, if someone else chooses to do something illegal to fight the system... like disable mining equipment, or protest outside a "free speech zone" -- I will not judge them.
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Re: "The Culture of Make Believe" by Derrick Jense

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 29 Jun 2008, 15:46:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('paimei01', 'I') think it must be done by telling people there is a better way.


In my opinion, not just telling them, but actually working to find out by experience what those better ways might be. Just telling people "live differently" doesn't do a heck of a lot of good, it seems to me. There need to be models.

Just telling people "destroy civilization" without giving any options on how to live once civilization is destroyed, means people are being asked to commit suicide, like Devin said. Are people likely to be moved by a message which is essentially telling them to destroy themselves?
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Re: "The Culture of Make Believe" by Derrick Jense

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sun 29 Jun 2008, 16:30:06

Yes, the problem will sort itself out. Shooting a criminal intruder is a false analogy. Humans may have constructed mythological notions of being apart from Nature, but that has little or nothing to do with the damage we have caused. We are natural products of evolution. Mass Extinction is something that happens on rare occasions. This is one of those occasions. Early life polluted it's environment with oxygen until it died out. Emotional reactions are understandable, but advocating that people blow up dams while accepting literary prizes and royalty checks and moaning about how conflicted it makes one feel doesn't float my boat.
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Re: "The Culture of Make Believe" by Derrick Jense

Unread postby Devin » Mon 30 Jun 2008, 05:27:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'A')re people likely to be moved by a message which is essentially telling them to destroy themselves?


Only if that message is preceded by hundreds of pages telling people how horrible they are! :roll:

jdumars, I'm hardly going to judge the people that want to destroy civilization "by any means necessary" -- I understand the anger involved, I truly do. Many a time I have dreamt of burning down schools, distributing caltrops on highways, dismantling powerlines, vandalizing construction vehicles, and so on. It's even FUN to dream of these things. But when people are supposed to change how they live not because of their intrinsic motivation to live freely, but because they are somehow guilty/perverse/insane, that's when things get ugly.

Tossing in activism and revolutions into the mix is legitimate as well. I have long called activism "the process of convincing other people to change so that the activists don't have to". Writing books is NOT leverage, even if they provide some sort of inspiration or direction to move in -- and his, in my opinion, don't provide any at all. He could have been an inspiration, but it appears he's far too drawn toward self-loathing/self-pity to get over himself and be a true leader toward another way of living, preferably one that is less dependent on feeling awful about things we are not empowered enough to change.

The real inspirations are people like Lynn, people who don't use their personal power to ask other people to change, but instead use it in their own lives to create a working model for another way to live.
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Re: "The Culture of Make Believe" by Derrick Jense

Unread postby ohanian » Mon 30 Jun 2008, 09:07:25

People are problems.

There are 6.8 billion problems on earth.


That is a big problem!!!
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Re: "The Culture of Make Believe" by Derrick Jense

Unread postby cannedsalmon » Mon 30 Jun 2008, 12:26:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdumars', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'B')ut Jensen's notion of deliberate criminal sabotage to bring it down is puerile and irresponsible. Just wait a bit, the problem will sort itself out.


See above.

In terms of "the problem sorting itself out" -- my question is at what cost? Literally every day this continues, at least 100 species are made extinct. If an axe murder was loose in your house and had just chopped up one of your family members and was headed to the room of the next one, would you just throw up your hands and say "ah well, he'll die of old age or cancer or something one of these days." Or, would you grab the .45 out of the night stand and kill the farker?

In terms of how to stop it... no one knows. For my part, I am trying to help others examine their own lifestyles, teach people about wild edibles, stop the use of industrial agriculture in my area, and so on. I'm not blowing up anything, because for me, I can accomplish a lot more even within the confines of the law. Now, if someone else chooses to do something illegal to fight the system... like disable mining equipment, or protest outside a "free speech zone" -- I will not judge them.


Ok moment of truth.

Will you judge the unabommber?

You see, if "Every man does what is right in his own eyes" we have a horrible terrible world.

Cause most men are crazy.

The only way to have a peaceful world is not to do "what is right in your own eyes" but to do what is right wether you like it or not.

That means laws

That means rules

That means you have to do what you don't like.

You shall not kill
steal
abuse parents
commit adultr\ery
covet

If you do these things you are in effect a unabommber on another mission.

If someone goes and destroys agricultural machinery to save extincting species, that is someone who took the law in his own hands and he needs to be arrested and removed from society.

Tomorrow he will decide to shoot you in the head because you stepped on a cockroach.

You see, if it is "every man doing what is right in his own eyes" then we are doomed.

because someday, some nitwit is going to say
"It is better to remove merica with our nooks so we can go to simpler lifestyle"

aand actually that is exactly what may happen.

When you play God and do what you think is right, you become the devil and will kill everyone. Eventually. This is a law of nature.

So, putting spikes in a tree (that is not yours) knowing full well some innocent lumberman will loose his vision supporting his family doesn't bother you?

See, most people are indeed crazy. spikers are insane and so are PETA people, they have lose the love of man for the love of demons of hate.
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Re: "The Culture of Make Believe" by Derrick Jense

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 30 Jun 2008, 12:57:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cannedsalmon', '
')See, most people are indeed crazy.


Well that's just goofy. Most people are not "crazy" or they wouldn't follow the rules, would they? :roll:
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