[MrBean]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ColossalContrarian', '
')The point I keep driving is (as well as posters before me) that "trimming fat" means less economic activity.

[MrBean]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CrudeAwakening', '
')The division of labour and its attendant specialization of skills may be a boon in times of economic growth and abundance, but it renders us supremely vulnerable to more difficult times. Ask yourself how well you would cope if you were forced to barter to support yourself. If you are unable to feed yourself, what can you offer someone else in return for food? It's a sobering thought.

[VMarcHart]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', '$')250 oil would be accompanied by an unraveling the likes of which the world's never seen.

[Heineken]

"Disaster" is a relative term. Of course.

And, when it happens to you, the rest of the world sort of fades to gray.

At the core of my beliefs is a belief in dieoff, VMarc. Not everyone dying, but a plunge in population to carrying capacity, whatever that will be (greatly reduced from what it was when the earth was pristine). Peak Oil is just one of the many factors that will feed in to this.

So, that's my definition of "disaster" as used in this thread. Yes, maybe most of the world will come to resemble Niger---scattered, impoverished cells of humanity clinging to life in a harsh, damaged environment.

[VMarcHart]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', '"')Disaster" is a relative term. Of course.

[MrBean]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', '
')So, that's my definition of "disaster" as used in this thread. Yes, maybe most of the world will come to resemble Niger---scattered, impoverished cells of humanity clinging to life in a harsh, damaged environment.

[VMarcHart]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBean', 'O')r maybe this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5ZgzwoQ-ao

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('VMarcHart', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', '"')Disaster" is a relative term. Of course.

[CrudeAwakening]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', '
')We must hammer away at reminding people of all the fantastically complex, crucial interrelationships and interdependencies that are balanced on cheap oil like an elephant on the head of a pin.

[VMarcHart]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CrudeAwakening', '.')..we had lived without oil before and we would do so again. Sigh..Well, yes, I said, but the transition may be a little messy, to say the least...

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CrudeAwakening', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', '
')We must hammer away at reminding people of all the fantastically complex, crucial interrelationships and interdependencies that are balanced on cheap oil like an elephant on the head of a pin.

[droper]

I look at it as what happens to the third world at those prices or before even. I see the poor of the developing world uprising, I see less demand for their goods, I see inflation in the first world due to their cost increasing. The chaos wont start in the first world it will happen there. It will eventually travel here as first a shock wave and then the full blast shortly after.

[dohboi]

So, bean, the US suburbs are going to turn overnight into an ancient tropical food forest? Nice fantasy. Yes there is a lot that can be done, but most of it takes many years to establish, and we spent those many years driving SUVs, scraping good agricultural land of all "organics" to plant McMansions on them, and buying lots of crap to fill them with.

The environmentally minded friends that want to "bring on" PO don't seem to have reflected that even in its earliest pre-peak phases, it has spawned wars that sink endlessly into quagmires, abominations like bio-fuels and tar sand fiascos that obliterate landscapes and kill seas, and many many promises of further massively destructive idiocies and the tragedies they spawn to come (oil shale, coals to liquids, nukes everywhere, more wars, more wars, more wars, famine, pandemic...)

Yeah, bring it on.
(Of course if you were talking to Jack, that attitude would be understandable, if not quite forgivable.)

[MrBean]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dohboi', 'S')o, bean, the US suburbs are going to turn overnight into an ancient tropical food forest? Nice fantasy. Yes there is a lot that can be done, but most of it takes many years to establish, and we spent those many years driving SUVs, scraping good agricultural land of all "organics" to plant McMansions on them, and buying lots of crap to fill them with.

The environmentally minded friends that want to "bring on" PO don't seem to have reflected that even in its earliest pre-peak phases, it has spawned wars that sink endlessly into quagmires, abominations like bio-fuels and tar sand fiascos that obliterate landscapes and kill seas, and many many promises of further massively destructive idiocies and the tragedies they spawn to come (oil shale, coals to liquids, nukes everywhere, more wars, more wars, more wars, famine, pandemic...)

Yeah, bring it on.
(Of course if you were talking to Jack, that attitude would be understandable, if not quite forgivable.)

[Mesuge]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Serial_Worrier', 'I') won't be able to afford $7/gallon gas.

[Mesuge]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', '.')..
I don't think the societal groupthink response to our problems (electric and H cars, thorium reactors, biofuels, all that other techno stuff) is good. Forget perfect.

[VMarcHart]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mesuge', 'T')here must be still something substantially wrong in the discretionary spending category that you can drop ... [ie] spendy wify

[dohboi]

"Problem with us, we can't think or act beyond selfish short-term conditioning. It does not really matter how many generations "turning US suburbs to food forest" would take. What matters is, how long are you going to postpone starting the planting?"

Hey, beano, I actually have spent quite a bit of time restoring my yard, neighbors yards, and other overlooked areas near by to something closer to their earlier state, planting hundreds of species of plants native to the region. Many of these have culunary and medicinal value.

So yeah, plant on.

I'm just personally alergic to any kind of happy talk that seems to say--hey, this is no big deal, just plant a prairie or re-establish healthy soil to start permaculture or a tropical food forest... as if these can be done instantly. Yes, we need to get started immediately (many, many years ago, actually), but pretending it will be quick or easy is going to lead to a lot of disappointment, and is just misleading.

I have no idea what your "choises" point was about. I don't see where I mispelled this word, or is the misspelling yours?

[Serial_Worrier]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dohboi', '"')Problem with us, we can't think or act beyond selfish short-term conditioning. It does not really matter how many generations "turning US suburbs to food forest" would take. What matters is, how long are you going to postpone starting the planting?"

Hey, beano, I actually have spent quite a bit of time restoring my yard, neighbors yards, and other overlooked areas near by to something closer to their earlier state, planting hundreds of species of plants native to the region. Many of these have culunary and medicinal value.

So yeah, plant on.

I'm just personally alergic to any kind of happy talk that seems to say--hey, this is no big deal, just plant a prairie or re-establish healthy soil to start permaculture or a tropical food forest... as if these can be done instantly. Yes, we need to get started immediately (many, many years ago, actually), but pretending it will be quick or easy is going to lead to a lot of disappointment, and is just misleading.

I have no idea what your "choises" point was about. I don't see where I mispelled this word, or is the misspelling yours?

[MrBean]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dohboi', '
')Hey, beano, I actually have spent quite a bit of time restoring my yard, neighbors yards, and other overlooked areas near by to something closer to their earlier state, planting hundreds of species of plants native to the region. Many of these have culunary and medicinal value.