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THE Fertilizer Thread (merged)

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: Alternatives to purchased fertilizers

Unread postby Mudpuppy » Tue 10 Jun 2008, 18:26:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')as anybody tried to boil bones and crush them or just throw them in a fire and crush them. The road kill alone around here would keep my farm going.


I do this in a round-a-bout way all the time when making and freezing stock at home. The bones become soo soft after a while that they can be snapped apart easily, as all the collagen has been simmered out of them and into the stock. However, I mainly do chicken stock as beef bones are not so common where I live. So not sure about larger bones. The principle is still the same, but it may take a looonnggg time to get to that point with say a big beef bone. On a regular basis would it not use less energy to see if you could use a chipper or something like that on them.
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Re: Alternatives to purchased fertilizers

Unread postby RedStateGreen » Tue 10 Jun 2008, 18:45:18

That reminds me, I read that you could roast bones in the oven and grind them. Probably after making soup would be the best time!
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Re: Alternatives to purchased fertilizers

Unread postby green_achers » Tue 17 Jun 2008, 11:22:06

Correction on my post above. The worm casting liquid rate was actually about $16,000/#N. Not quite as bad. According to the article, the NPK numbers are extremely small. Not sure what this means, since I've always heard that worm castings are supposed to be very high in nutrients. Maybe it's because liquid fertilizers are mostly water.
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Re: Alternatives to purchased fertilizers

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 17 Jun 2008, 11:26:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RedStateGreen', 'T')hat reminds me, I read that you could roast bones in the oven and grind them. Probably after making soup would be the best time!


I just bury them in the garden to decompose over time.
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Re: Alternatives to purchased fertilizers

Unread postby DoubleD » Tue 17 Jun 2008, 23:30:07

Compost - well made from a good variety of inputs is one of the most balanced natural and long acting fertilizers you can use. It should be the foundation of garden soil management. After that... here are good organic souces for NPK that may be readily available to you - depending on where your location is.


Nitrogen:

Grass Clippings

Alfalfa - can be hand scythed from the edge of a hay field or any area that it is growing wild - often shows up in ditches next to a hay farm area - or you can sweep the chaff from a hay barn if you have one at your disposal

Fish - can be buried in the garden directly (but will attract critters which can be a problem) or you can whack it up with a good knife and then "blender it ala "bassomatic"" and make your own fish meal puree. Place in a bucket with some chopped kelp, a little molasses if you have it (helps with the decomposing process) - cover tightly and let sit for a few weeks - stirring it once a day if possible. Will turn into a foamy on the top gooey mess. Just dilute with water and you have a fish meal drench. Those of us near the seashore can find "dead critters" on the beach if you just head out as the tide is going out.

Manure - steer, chicken, etc are higher in nitrogen but must be aged before applying to an area with plants - or it will burn them. Good to mix into the garden soil in early spring a few weeks BEFORE you plant the first items so it has time to mellow.

Green manure/cover crops - I plant crimson clover in the fall for areas that are not in food production mode through the winter months. I use bush beans or buckwheat in the summer months if an area is not planted up until later or I will plant them as an understory to heavy nitrogen feeders - such as a stand of corn. I also plant peas in the spring and the fall - and after harvesting the produce - the plant material and roots are either turned under or composted.

Phosphorous:

Kelp - rinsed to remove salt first

Fish meal (see "bass o matic" discussion above in nitrogen discussion)

Potassium:

Wood ash - raises PH though and it leaves salts in the soil - so this should be very very sparingly used - as in no more often than once very 3 years or so for a garden bed area - and only a dusting at that.

Kelp - rinsed to remove salt first



Personally... for phosphorus I prefer to buy large bags of rock phosphate and keep them on hand... periodic applications to the garden - every 3 or 5 years is more than enough... as the rock minerals release over a period of up to 10 years. It is still inexpensive to purchase - stores forever with no special handling - and is the one nutrient that is HARD to substitute with natural products and is the most likely to be the limiting factor in your gardens production capabilities. Nitrogen can be too - but there are many many natural sources for that - not so many for "P".

(edited to add a sentence that was needed and missed the first posted this - sorry)
Last edited by DoubleD on Wed 18 Jun 2008, 00:41:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Alternatives to purchased fertilizers

Unread postby DoubleD » Tue 17 Jun 2008, 23:33:45

I forgot to add to my previous post - as you can see if you look carefully at my list - that if you make a fish/kelp emulsion and use it diluted into a tea to fertigate your garden plantings ... it is almost the ideal nutrient shot - as it is a good supply (when combined) of "N", "P" and "K". Really diluted it is the perfect first food for young seedlings.

I use it alot in my gardens as a result.
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Re: Alternatives to purchased fertilizers

Unread postby alokin » Wed 18 Jun 2008, 01:52:25

stink brew with comfrey, borage or nettles.
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Re: Alternatives to purchased fertilizers

Unread postby frankthetank » Wed 18 Jun 2008, 09:02:09

Thing that sucks about grass clippings is that so many yards are treated now, the only ones i use are my own.

What a guy should be doing is bow carp fishing. Using a bow to shoot unwanted carp and using the dead fish for fertilizer. Carp are very large fish (i've caught them over 20pounds).
lawns should be outlawed.
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Re: Alternatives to purchased fertilizers

Unread postby green_achers » Wed 18 Jun 2008, 12:38:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RedStateGreen', 'T')hat reminds me, I read that you could roast bones in the oven and grind them. Probably after making soup would be the best time!


I just bury them in the garden to decompose over time.


My compost heaps regularly reach the 160-180 degree F range, so I don't have a problem adding small amounts of bones and other animal matter to them.
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Re: Alternatives to purchased fertilizers

Unread postby green_achers » Wed 18 Jun 2008, 12:44:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DoubleD', 'F')ish - can be buried in the garden directly (but will attract critters which can be a problem) or you can whack it up with a good knife and then "blender it ala "bassomatic"" and make your own fish meal puree. Place in a bucket with some chopped kelp, a little molasses if you have it (helps with the decomposing process) - cover tightly and let sit for a few weeks - stirring it once a day if possible. Will turn into a foamy on the top gooey mess. Just dilute with water and you have a fish meal drench. Those of us near the seashore can find "dead critters" on the beach if you just head out as the tide is going out.


Do you have a major odor problem? Looks like a good product, but for most people the smell could be a major deterrent.

The Tallahatchie River is my front yard, so I've been thinking a numbers of trot lines might be part of my strategy...
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Re: Alternatives to purchased fertilizers

Unread postby DoubleD » Wed 18 Jun 2008, 22:41:08

Fish emulsion drenches do stink. It takes about two days for the "odor" to remove itself... but it is a miracle shot of nutrients and combined with Kelp is a real homerun brew.
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Re: Alternatives to purchased fertilizers

Unread postby one_more_day » Thu 19 Jun 2008, 01:32:04

Rabbit manure, don't forget rabbit manure! It is a great source of nutrients, and can be applied straight to the garden without fear of burning your plants. It comes in convenient pellets that make for easy application.

Rabbit manure has made all the difference in my garden this year.
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Re: Alternatives to purchased fertilizers

Unread postby green_achers » Thu 19 Jun 2008, 16:25:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DoubleD', 'F')ish emulsion drenches do stink. It takes about two days for the "odor" to remove itself... but it is a miracle shot of nutrients and combined with Kelp is a real homerun brew.


I guess I wasn't thinking about the drench part as much as the "few weeks" you have it in the bucket. It sounds like something I wouldn't want to be within a couple of miles of, much less to stir it every day.

Not trying to be picky, just to find out if I'm missing something.
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Re: Alternatives to purchased fertilizers

Unread postby DoubleD » Thu 19 Jun 2008, 23:34:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')lace in a bucket with some chopped kelp, a little molasses if you have it (helps with the decomposing process) - cover tightly and let sit for a few weeks....


I think you may have missed the "cover tightly" part. I use a five gallon bucket with a tight fitting lid that has an inner rubber gasket. It sits behind the shop in the shade of the shop and tall trees. Yes it stinks to almighty when you open it up - but not otherwise.
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Re: Alternatives to purchased fertilizers

Unread postby pedalling_faster » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 08:54:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('green_achers', 'C')orrection on my post above. The worm casting liquid rate was actually about $16,000/#N. Not quite as bad. According to the article, the NPK numbers are extremely small. Not sure what this means, since I've always heard that worm castings are supposed to be very high in nutrients. Maybe it's because liquid fertilizers are mostly water.


available nutrients vs. nutrients locked up in tissue.

when the decomposed plants the worms eat come out the back end, they are ready for use as food, by a plant. helped along by various tiny organisms that transfer food chemicals to the plant's roots.

the fresh grass needs a few years of "cold composting" (like it would get on a forest floor) or 3 months of hot composting (where the bacteria heat up the compost pile) before the nutrients are close to being as available as in the earthworm castings.
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Re: Alternatives to purchased fertilizers

Unread postby wisconsin_cur » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 09:01:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('one_more_day', 'R')abbit manure, don't forget rabbit manure! It is a great source of nutrients, and can be applied straight to the garden without fear of burning your plants. It comes in convenient pellets that make for easy application.

Rabbit manure has made all the difference in my garden this year.


I have to second this. I also use it straight from the rabbit to start my tomatoes in. this year I started half in rabbit manure and half in store bought potting mix and it is hard for me to exagerate the difference.
----------------
edit:

got the pictures. It is a little hard to tell in the photo but the three large plants on the outside were started in rabbit manure. The one in the middle is representative of those started in potting mix.

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Fertiliser Shortages

Unread postby burtonridr » Fri 27 Jun 2008, 12:20:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Article', 'A')s the rains have arrived early in Northern India, the countryside has got a much needed respite from the scorching summer heat.

Paddy farmer Ram Nivas Sehrawat--If I had used a fertiliser the plants would have grown much taller by now
Paddy farmer Ram Nivas Sehrawat--Usually heavy rains at this time spells good news for the rice farmers of Haryana, Punjab and Delhi as its time to start planting in their fields.

But paddy farmer Ram Nivas Sehrawat, who works hard to grow rice crop out of his small plot of five acres just outside Delhi, is a worried man. Mr Sehrawat has sowed his seeds and his paddy nursery is ready to be transplanted to his main fields.

But he has not been able to apply the vital dose of fertilisers at the right time and his paddy nursery is not looking healthy. full article here

We all saw this coming, here it comes... get ready for food shortages soon.....
Last edited by burtonridr on Fri 27 Jun 2008, 18:57:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fertiliser Shortages

Unread postby SoylentGreen » Fri 27 Jun 2008, 13:43:43

a fertilizer shortage will never be comprehended by congress, they armpit deep in the stuff 24/7/365
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Re: Fertiliser Shortages

Unread postby allenwrench » Mon 30 Jun 2008, 09:55:34

Natural gas is a raw material in many of our products we depend on.

Almost all the helium we produce comes from natural gas.

Propane, synthetic fertilizers, ammonia?

They are totally dependent on natural gas.

Our population boom was fueled by synthetic fertilizers made from natural; gas. Once the gas dries up so does the fertilizer and a shortage of fertilizer equals a shortage of food.

We will run out of natural gas, just as we deplete our crude supplies in the near future.
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Re: Fertiliser Shortages

Unread postby Gerben » Mon 30 Jun 2008, 14:31:29

Natural gas is used to make fertiliser in multiple steps. The fist step is to make hydrogen from the natural gas. You don't need natural gas however. Other energysources can also be used to make hydrogen, like coal and biomass. Before we can think of a hydrogen economy, we should make a transition in the way we produce our hydrogen as a chemical feedstock, before thinking of new ways to use hydrogen.
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