[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'I') just find the whole thing very GUILT oriented like a lot of religions, and almost evangelical in the way die-off is seen as both inevitable and a way to thin the herd down for the sake of "perfecting" humanity once and for all.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '
')Then you'd be going beyond the pure thrust of sites like anthropik which seem to advocate an all or nothing return to hunter-gatherer.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '
')Right, but you are always linking to this manifesto which does:

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')I'll endeavor to be clear that I don't necessarily agree with everything written just because I post it.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '
')I'm glad to hear that you're an independent thinker.

[paimei01]

Yes btu2012 I could enjoy myself while others were dying for my freedom. I don't give a f..k about them. They wanted to fight good, I did not ask them to. Same thing today, I do not care who fights for what

When I will decide I have not enough "freedom", or I find something worth fighting for, I will go and fight, I do not care if I am alone. And I will not ask others to owe me anything


Yes I know what Iliescu has done, in 2007 he and his friends voted our elected president out. We had to vote him back in in a referendum
But I do not care much who is in command, not one of them offers what I want to see - what is happening in Cuba
I am not weeping on Ceausescu's memory. But I do not hate him. Want me to hate him ? I know what he did. When someone does the same to me or someone I know I will probably hate him, now all I can say about Ceausescu is that he was "lost"

[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('paimei01', 'Y')es btu2012 I could enjoy myself while others were dying for my freedom. I don't give a f..k about them.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '
')I'm glad to hear that you're an independent thinker.

[paimei01]

Nobody forced them to revolt, they wanted to be there, and to fight the army and police. That is what they did, I admire them for their courage.
At the time of the revolution I saw people with flags shouting in the streets. There was a feeling of excitement, I did not understand much then, but because everybody was cursing the regime and was happy , I was too.

Ok I respect those people , they were brave, and I like the result. But I do not feel in debt for anything. If I was revolting I would not want anybody to feel in debt to me. I agree with the ideal of freedom they fought for, which I myself have, but it's only an ideal. I hope that if there is need to fight I will not run and hide, I do not take freedom for granted
I would not want anybody to be forced to war, or to fight for his country. You want to do it, or you do not, nobody should judge those who do not

Now I would like to meet you btu2012 and explain what i think better. Communicating here is not enough and I find it hard to make myself understood

[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('paimei01', 'B')ut I do not feel in debt for anything.

[paimei01]

I know that
Here is a quote from "The Story of B", another book by Daniel Quinn, dealing with the same stuff :
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat these founders of our culture fundamentally invented for us was the notion of work. They developed a hard way to live - the hardest way to live ever found on this planet

[Devin]

I read the trilogy and was a member of IshCon and a lot of the resultant discussions, I've read everything at Anthropik, and so on --

but I still am not a big fan of Quinn. The novels are boring, quite simply, and I got really annoyed at the dialogue. Ishmael says something, Alan agrees, rinse and repeat. Also, he may not have intended this but his books to appeal to people with grandiosity/inferiority complexes who want to "save the world", something that makes me want to vomit.

He does have his moments of brilliance - telling this culture's "creation myth", reinterpreting the Garden of Eden story, talking about the food race, and so on -- but these are better suited to essays and speeches than to novels. I feel a little silly recommending Ishmael to people because these sort of ideas coming from a telepathic gorilla strains their credulity quite a bit.
---

As far as Anthropik goes, Jason has done an excellent job of laying out the arguments for primitivism, consolidating a large amount of research into his essays. He does tend to take a fairly absolutist position on things, far moreso than I can support, but this hardly makes the bulk of his arguments invalid.

The accusations of this being an ideology, a religion so to speak, are unfounded. While a few people are interested in learning how to live like hunter-gatherers, myself included, no one in the circles I interact with thinks it's a viable solution for everyone. That's as silly as the arguments that say hunting and gathering couldn't feed everyone, therefore people who advocate hunting and gathering are advocating massive die-off. Such atrocious logic is more common than you might think.

To be clear: I don't LIKE civilization, I don't want to live in such a crowded world, and I would greatly prefer there being a small percentage of the current population. But I no more advocate for die-off than I do for civilization and civilization's tendency to overshoot, since they are one and the same feedback loop. All people like Daniel Quinn and Jason Godesky are saying is that we're in a predicament as a result of living the way we do, and it's important to 1. understand the reasons why and 2. look at alternative ways to live -- or in Quinn's terms, "other stories to be in".

Personally, I think this is a very sensible way to look at the predicament we're in, which people are in varying stages of denial about. I have a pet theory that the extent to which people vilify this kind of approach (or, more comfortably, the people who take it) is the extent to which they deny there is a predicament in the first place. Applying this theory, the people who get so angry at those looking at alternative methods of subsistence (such as hunting and gathering) and say "BUT THAT DOES NOT FEED EVERYONE!!1one" are the very same ones who will staunchly deny that we are in overshoot in the first place.
----

These discussions are really predictable by the way, I have to have said something similar at least 50 times now. An amazing number of people have very similar perspectives, almost like they were a part of the same culture or something. Crazy.

[Ludi]

DQ is not a very good writer of fiction. I prefer his essays and speeches. Apparently he wrote fiction because it was the only way to get his ideas published in a mainstream format.

BTW, the movie inspired by "Ishmael" - "instinct" starring Anthony Hopkins, sucks, in my opinion.

[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Devin', '[')some smart stuff]

[BigTex]

I read Ishmael.

I liked it.

The Gorilla device was okay with me. You've got to have some kind of narrator, and that's as good as any if it needs to be someone who is not a human.

The reinterpretation of The Garden of Eden story was worth reading the book by itself. Those ideas are very good and stimulate a lot of thought even if you disagree with parts of his analysis or theory.

Overall, I think the book has a lot of good stuff to say, and I think Quinn packages it in terms of a potential alternative paradigm to the one we sometimes see as "truth".

There is a certain underlying contempt about our civilization that peeks out from time to time, and that is a thorny issue to deal with. Even if you feel contempt for where we're at and what we've done, it's no good to telegraph that contempt before you fully develop your alternative theory. The risk is that you turn off the audience before you have had a chance to completely make your case.

It's not a perfect book, but it's good, and I liked it.

I'm not ready to run out and buy a Daniel Quinn lunchbox and pajamas, but I'm looking forward to reading "The Story of B."

[btu2012]

Glad that you didn't find it boring.

[Jenab6]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('btu2012', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'W')hy is it impractical for people to give support and get support from others? That's the tribal model Quinn promotes.