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THE Transportation Infrastructure Thread (merged)

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: Infrastructure as jobs projects?

Unread postby PeakingAroundtheCorner » Wed 13 Feb 2008, 23:25:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'A')ccording to adn.com the Knik arm bridge and toll authority received their environmental impact approval in December 2007 and can now move on to contracting and construction of the bridge. Recently in speeches Barack Obama whom I consider most likely to be our next President of the USA has been saying that he considers infrastructure improvements to be good for the economy, rather in the mold of FDR during the Great Depression when many large public works projects and thousands of small projects were built.
The KABATA web page gives a tentative schedual for construction to begin in Spring 2009, perfect timing for a public works project under the first year of the Obama administration. Schedule
What do you all think?

I think Obama's plan is the smartest thing I've heard in a long time. In fact, it's the single most important reason I have committed to actively work for his campaign. I just went down to the Dem office today to get my ass in the game. Tommorrow, I'll be going to his campaign office and picking up yard and rally signs and other lit and swag for the local headquarters.
The idea of kids being able to pay for college by doing community service and infrastructure is just what this country needs.
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Re: Infrastructure as jobs projects?

Unread postby highlander » Wed 13 Feb 2008, 23:43:23

Infrastructure improvements, especially related to mass transit, is a commendable idea. It will keep the unemployed masses in line. (like they did during the great depression). The big question is how is it going to be paid for. There is no question of who is going to pay for it.
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Re: Infrastructure as jobs projects?

Unread postby gampy » Thu 14 Feb 2008, 02:20:29

Sounds good in a speech, but can it be implemented? Perhaps with a Democratic House and Senate in the first 2 years of his presidency.
Green tech is a vague catch-all phrase, but it would require a huge commitment in the form of subsidies and incentives to get big industry to re-tool towards an oil-reduced economy.
I think the auto industry is going to take a wait and see approach. They won't change until the consumer demands new products. The consumer won't change until energy is too expensive. ($200 barrel oil?)
It will take a great deal of political capital to get the government to initiate any change towards this. Government, business, and consumers tends to react, not pro-act.
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Re: Infrastructure as jobs projects?

Unread postby mos6507 » Thu 14 Feb 2008, 05:18:35

I think there is a growing fatigue of the status quo, which can lead to more public support for change, ANY change, whether it be the "government is the problem" mantra of Ron Paul (which ain't gonna happen) or the "government is the solution" mantra of the democrats (which is more likely). They just want some sort of action on issues which have been languishing or getting worse for 8 years.
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Re: Infrastructure as jobs projects?

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Thu 14 Feb 2008, 17:34:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'A')nd the government won't be able to outbid the soccer moms?
Higher prices will shift oil supply away from inefficient users and towards more efficient users (or extremely high bidders like the federal government).

True; but it still spells doom for the 'American Way of Life' (tm).
"It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."

George Carlin
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Re: Infrastructure as jobs projects?

Unread postby highlander » Thu 14 Feb 2008, 18:10:48

Nice photo Emerson! Amazing what a few thousand wage slaves and shovels can accomplish!
You are spot on about oil production and population. There is no apparent way to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps this time.
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Re: America's fresh water pipeline infrastructure is failing

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 08 Apr 2008, 22:37:12

All of America's infrastructure is failing.

Buh bye.
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Re: America's fresh water pipeline infrastructure is failing

Unread postby foo » Wed 09 Apr 2008, 00:57:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Denny', 'E')ven in bankruptcy, you have to take care of important things, like water and basic building maintenance. Water is way more important than money. In the end, even if the government has to create inflation to do it, it must be done. Look back at World War II, even though there was no money, the government made things happen, and big time. Why? Because it had to be done.

True. But back in WW2, the American people and government weren't buried in debt and bankrupt as they are now. And back then, the US had plenty of oil, unlike now.
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Re: America's fresh water pipeline infrastructure is failing

Unread postby foo » Wed 09 Apr 2008, 02:48:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'L')astly, you don't think that we can conserve water? We can reduce our water consumption enormously before we have to worry about running dry. And if we cut our water use, we reduce the strain on the system and thus the cost of maintaining it.
100 Ways To Save Water
All I'm saying is that although we may have many things to worry about, America's water infrastructure is not one of them.

Tyler, I totally agree with you about the fact that there is major waste in the US. Water, gasoline, etc. And this waste can and should be cut back. I am totally for conservation. Heck, I don't even own a car or drive. 8) I am personally sick of the typical bloated, wasteful, selfish American lifestyle. Something has to change, and it will.
Unfortunately today's massive US infrastructure (roads, water, electricity, buildings, farming, etc) requires HUGE amounts of oil and energy to maintain. Even if the remaining dwindling oil and natural gas supplies are used to maintain the infrastructure, most other discretionary energy use will have to be cut back or cut out altogether. In other words, we can say goodbye to much of modern entertainment, long distance leisure travel, and personal cars, etc. Whether this is a good or bad thing depends on the person I suppose.
My point is that life as Americans know it today will probably not even be recognizable in the near future due to peak oil. Obviously life as we know it today cannot continue in a post peak oil world. But I do think life will continue, in one form or another.
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Re: America's fresh water pipeline infrastructure is failing

Unread postby Twilight » Wed 09 Apr 2008, 19:54:21

Push comes to shove, the work will be done for food. Of that, the US has no shortage. I wouldn't waste time worrying about this bit.
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Re: America's fresh water pipeline infrastructure is failing

Unread postby Ludi » Wed 09 Apr 2008, 19:56:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Twilight', 'P')ush comes to shove, the work will be done for food. Of that, the US has no shortage. I wouldn't waste time worrying about this bit.

The work isn't being done. Our infrastructure is crumbling and the work isn't being done. Why would it be done for food (paid for by whom?) some magical time in the future?
This is something I just don't understand - this belief that things will get done simply "because they need to be done."
There's a great deal that "needs to be done" and it isn't being done. Where does the belief come from that it will, at some magical point in the future, happen?
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Re: America's fresh water pipeline infrastructure is failing

Unread postby Twilight » Wed 09 Apr 2008, 20:01:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'T')he work isn't being done. Our infrastructure is crumbling and the work isn't being done. Why would it be done for food (paid for by whom?) some magical time in the future?

Just a rerun of the CCC and the like. That seems a sensible option. If we get an economic collapse, there could be a bright side! All those annoying chores we have been putting off get done.
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Re: America's fresh water pipeline infrastructure is failing

Unread postby foo » Wed 09 Apr 2008, 21:52:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Twilight', 'P')ush comes to shove, the work will be done for food. Of that, the US has no shortage. I wouldn't waste time worrying about this bit.

The work isn't being done. Our infrastructure is crumbling and the work isn't being done. Why would it be done for food (paid for by whom?) some magical time in the future?
This is something I just don't understand - this belief that things will get done simply "because they need to be done."
There's a great deal that "needs to be done" and it isn't being done. Where does the belief come from that it will, at some magical point in the future, happen?

I have to agree with Ludi. Talk is cheap, and the work isn't being done. Why would the repairs and maintenance get done in a post peak world with energy shortages when it can't even get done when there was plentiful oil?
On a different note, I do think life will be harder post peak. But at the same time, I think the quality of life will greatly increase for many.
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Re: America's fresh water pipeline infrastructure is failing

Unread postby dinopello » Wed 09 Apr 2008, 22:28:43

This is weird,

this video came up on the 'now playing' area of Youtube

I think I'd help Jennifer Connelly get her water
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Re: America's fresh water pipeline infrastructure is failing

Unread postby cube » Thu 10 Apr 2008, 19:40:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '4')80 billion over the course of 20 years. That's 24 billion dollars a year.
Assuming all 300 million Americans pay for it equally...that's $80 a year per person. WE'RE DOOMED!!!!!!
But seriously, that's pretty inexpensive for nearly unlimited access to some of the cleanest, cheapest water in the world.
No offense Tyler but I think you're missing something here. If this was simply a water problem then I agree. We can all do the happy dance. Unfortunately we have a:
1) water problem
2) energy problem
3) debt problem
4) transportation problem
5) *insert grocery list* problem
$80 here, $100 there, plus some more over here and it all adds up. The next thing you know you wake up one day only to realize the glory days are history and you're no longer a world economic super power.....kinda like France. sucks huh?
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Re: America's fresh water pipeline infrastructure is failing

Unread postby yesplease » Fri 11 Apr 2008, 04:13:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'U')nfortunately we have a:
1) water problem
2) energy problem
3) debt problem
4) transportation problem
5) *insert grocery list* problem
We have a debt problem because the current administration has cut tax revenue significantly, started an occupation in a historically unstable region, and for the most part has opened up the treasuries via all sorts of cuts/changes in regulations/increases in cost (medicare perscriptions)/etc. Our energy problems are a direct result of our debt problems, since wasteful use of a finite resource will ultimately drive prices up and running the printing presses as hard as we have been deflates the value of our currency compared to others which means we have to pay more of it for commodities. Our transportation problems are due to flagrant lobbying on behalf of you know who to freeze CAFE, and then to render it practically useless, a class of vehicles it didn't apply to were offered, dropping the US passenger fleet average to a little more than twice that of a loaded semi truck that weighs about twenty times more. An analogous situation would be spending $100 on groceries, dumping $90 of it in the trash, then complaining about how we can't afford to eat. The food trouble we've been having is partly due to our currency having less value, and the use of corn for grossly inefficient transportation. It seems that most of the courses of action taken recently by the administration are those that result in price spikes and maximized profit compared to those that could contribute to the public good. Our water and other infrastructure is in trouble because it needs upkeep/investment and instead we're spending trillions more than we need to wasting energy and money like it's going out of style.

So... Our problems more or less are what we've brought upon ourselves. If we're too stupid to realize this and it results in TEOTWAWKI in a very bad way, we might as well just press the big red buttons and let the megaton pissing contest run it's course. It'll certainly be less tedious. That being said, our "problems" seem quite contrived and as such will be "solved" quite simply, and profitably I might add. Both the sales of Carbon producing fuels, and capturing of said Carbon via Carbon-neutral tech, will serve to make someone rich. The more stuff we burn, the more stuff we must capture, and the more money someone must make.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Professor Membrane', ' ')Not now son, I'm making ... TOAST!
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Re: How long until the roads and highways fall apart?

Unread postby vetusfirma » Sat 07 Jun 2008, 02:46:26

And they never did a good job before, so at first it will look like business as usual.
Last edited by Ferretlover on Sun 22 Mar 2009, 16:30:53, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Merged with THE Public Infrastructure Thread.
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Re: How long until the roads and highways fall apart?

Unread postby SILENTTODD » Sat 07 Jun 2008, 03:03:09

The amount of heavy truck traffic on roads is the main cause of most of the damage to the road bed. With less heavy truck traffic the road beds may last longer.

I know of road beds in central California that have not been repaved since they were layed down in the early 60's and are still in good shape. These roads have never been subject to much tractor trailer use.
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Re: How long until the roads and highways fall apart?

Unread postby katkinkate » Sat 07 Jun 2008, 03:04:53

It will only take a relatively few years. Either the continual traffic on roads not being maintained will crack up the surface and slow the traffic down, or if oil prices get too high and traffic becomes more sparse, the plants growing through cracks will break it up.
Kind regards, Katkinkate

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but the cultivation and perfection of human beings."
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Re: How long until the roads and highways fall apart?

Unread postby mos6507 » Sat 07 Jun 2008, 03:21:19

It's not just 18 wheelers that chew up the roads. In colder climates you have potholes develop from the water freeze/melt cycles.
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