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An overview of power generation methods for doomers

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: An overview of power generation methods for doomers

Unread postby mos6507 » Sun 25 May 2008, 18:58:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', 'T')ex, the best battery is the heaviest battery. At least for stationary apps, and if it's never discharged, or only shallowly discharged, it'll last for a long time...


What you're saying is a battery that is never used lasts a long time. What the hell good is that?

What people want are reserve electricity storage for the load levelling, evenings, and cloudy days, not glorified UPSs that almost never engage.
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Re: An overview of power generation methods for doomers

Unread postby yesplease » Mon 26 May 2008, 02:24:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', 'T')ex, the best battery is the heaviest battery. At least for stationary apps, and if it's never discharged, or only shallowly discharged, it'll last for a long time...


What you're saying is a battery that is never used lasts a long time.
No, I'm saying that is where the info about phone company batteries being long lasting and alla that comes from. Why do you even bother reading other people's posts if yer just gonna stick words in their mouth (so to speak)?$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'W')hat the hell good is that?
Ask the phone company, they're their batteries. :roll:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Professor Membrane', ' ')Not now son, I'm making ... TOAST!
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Re: An overview of power generation methods for doomers

Unread postby tsakach » Mon 26 May 2008, 04:09:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', 'w')here the info about phone company batteries being long lasting and alla that comes from.


Here it is:

Stationary batteries used by the phone company are also known as a "Plante plate" type battery. This is a very old battery technology, where the positive plates are made from solid lead of high purity. As the surface of a solid lead acid plate deteriorates with age, it drops off exposing fresh lead material.

In contrast, ordinary lead acid batteries have only a thin layer of lead paste applied to a non-lead grid. When the lead paste battery deteriorates with age or abnormal use, the amount of lead available for reaction is reduced to the point where the battery is no longer usable.

Here is an example of the type of battery used by the phone company:

Plante PS & PL 2 VOLT CELLS - 20 YEAR LIFE
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Plante pure lead positive plate cell have been used by industry for more than 100 years. With a life expectancy of more than 20 years these low maintenance flooded batteries are used in the Telecom and Utility industries where reliable backup power is required.


However, the 20 year life expectancy of phone company batteries is mainly due to the fact that these batteries spend most of the time in a float state, and do not have many deep cycles in their lifetime.

Pasted lead antimony batteries with thick plates (0.25- 0.35 inches), actually perform better in an environment where batteries are cycled frequently.

Reference:
Handbook of Secondary Storage Batteries and Charge Regulators in Photovoltaic Systems
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Re: An overview of power generation methods for doomers

Unread postby ANewHuman » Mon 26 May 2008, 11:53:49

Anyone here had any experience with supercapacitors?

You can buy one now which has about the storage capacity of a LITHIUM AA battery for $100. It is about the size of a beer can and obviously only stores as much as an AA battery... so the advantages?

1 million recharge cycles, that's pretty much a life time, the only issue is would the materials it's made of not degrade over the years. Anyone have knowledge on this?

Would get very very expensive to have enough supercapacitors for a few days of storage but yeah.
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Re: An overview of power generation methods for doomers

Unread postby BigTex » Mon 26 May 2008, 12:15:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ANewHuman', 'A')nyone here had any experience with supercapacitors?

You can buy one now which has about the storage capacity of a LITHIUM AA battery for $100. It is about the size of a beer can and obviously only stores as much as an AA battery... so the advantages?

1 million recharge cycles, that's pretty much a life time, the only issue is would the materials it's made of not degrade over the years. Anyone have knowledge on this?

Would get very very expensive to have enough supercapacitors for a few days of storage but yeah.


Read up on eestor. There is a thread about this company from a while back.

They were working on some interesting technology.
:)
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Re: An overview of power generation methods for doomers

Unread postby tsakach » Mon 26 May 2008, 16:55:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'R')ead up on eestor. There is a thread about this company from a while back.

They were working on some interesting technology.


Yes, and it is interesting enough for the US military/industrial complex to setup an exclusive agreement between EESTOR and Lockheed/Martin. It seems that most if not all of the output of their only manufacturing plant has been allocated "for military and homeland security applications."

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he agreement gives Lockheed "exclusive international rights" to "integrate and market Electrical Energy Storage Units (EESU) from EEStor Inc. for military and homeland security applications."


Press Release

ZENN motors was and maybe still is expecting to take delivery of EESTOR ultracapacitors for NEV. ZENN president and CEO Richard Weir says "They remain on track to begin shipping production 15 kilowatt-hour Electrical Energy Storage Units to ZENN Motor Company in 2007."

Uh huh.

The dilemma here is that new technology with potential is snapped up by the military or preallocated to wealthy customers, and the rest of us must make do with whatever can be mass produced at the moment.

The lead-acid battery is still the most viable and economical solution for alternative energy storage, and will remain so for some time. So it is a good idea to learn how to use and maintain the lead acid battery. Adapting your energy usage patterns such that reliance on storage is minimized is also a good idea. Or in other words, "make hay while the sun shines."
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Re: An overview of power generation methods for doomers

Unread postby tsakach » Mon 26 May 2008, 19:59:02

An example of energy technology for doomers might be the following:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Eprida technology uses agricultural waste biomass to produce hydrogen-rich bio-fuels and a new restorative high-carbon fertilizer (ECOSS). The process actually removes net CO2 from the air by stabilizing carbon in the topsoil where it is needed. In tropical or depleted soils ECOSS fertilizer sustainably improves soil fertility, water holding and plant yield far beyond what is possible with nitrogen fertilizers alone. The hydrogen produced from biomass can be used to make ethanol, or a Fischer-Troupsch gas-to-liquids diesel (BTL diesel), as well as the ammonia used to enrich the carbon to make ECOSS fertilizer.


Eprida

This technology is based on generating producer gases through pyrolysis of waste biomass, and reforming the gas into bio-fuels with catalytic processes such as Fischer-Tropsch. The end product is a high grade diesel fuel, with the byproduct being a fertilizer comprised of carbon and mineral solids.

It would appear that this type of technology could reduce or maybe even eliminate the use of oil for agriculture.

But here are a few doomerish questions about this technology which are cited in the literature as "further research":

How much food and fuel can be produced from biomass-generated fuels? If we were to switch to solely using biomass for food production, would we still be able to produce and distribute as much food as we do now with petroleum derived fuel and fertilizers?

If viable, how much would it cost to convert to something like this on a large scale, and how long would it take?

Could a small farm or cooperative adopt this technology, or is it relegated solely to the domain of large agriculture?
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Re: An overview of power generation methods for doomers

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 26 May 2008, 22:57:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kjmclark', 'Y')ou could also use a woodgas rig with a regular generator. If you have a woodlot available, or even trash wood like willow or cottonwood, you're set. This requires a bit of tinkering, since AFAIK no one sells pyrolysis equipment, but it isn't too hard. Much cheaper than an equivalent capacity solar or wind system, and the unburned wood is your storage.


Hey thanks. I was just thinking of this technology when I was discussing energy storage with my wife. I read about it some 30 years ago in National Fisherman but there it was called a "garbage burner." Some guy proposed using it to propel his lobster boat.

You gave me the words to Google.

http://www.woodgas.com/

Which eventually led me to Google "Wood gas generator"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_gas_generator

Check this out:
With rising oil prices, wood gas generators are coming back. The US Federal Emergency Management Administration published a book, "Construction of a Simplified Wood Gas Generator for Fueling Internal Combustion Engines in a Petroleum Emergency", in March 1989, describing a different design called the "stratified downdraft gasifier". It solves several drawbacks of earlier types, and should be used to guide contemporary projects instead of the earlier designs.

And they provide a link to a free FEMA handbook on how to build your own. 10kg of wood provides one liter of fuel.

I've got about 150 acres of woodlot with about 300 feet of vertical elevation change and a stream at the bottom, springs on the side. I was thinking of creating a storage tank at the top and using wind/solar to fill it up with water. Then a small hydro plant at the bottom.

Wood gas is another alternative I need to read up on.

In all cases conservation of energy is the key. If you use less you need to produce less. Learn to love insulation, sweat and warm beer.
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Re: An overview of power generation methods for doomers

Unread postby fletch_961 » Tue 27 May 2008, 00:44:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('tsakach', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'R')ead up on eestor. There is a thread about this company from a while back.

They were working on some interesting technology.


Yes, and it is interesting enough for the US military/industrial complex to setup an exclusive agreement between EESTOR and Lockheed/Martin. It seems that most if not all of the output of their only manufacturing plant has been allocated "for military and homeland security applications."

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he agreement gives Lockheed "exclusive international rights" to "integrate and market Electrical Energy Storage Units (EESU) from EEStor Inc. for military and homeland security applications."


Press Release



."


I believe you are misinterpreting what that press release says. The only thing that says is if the military decides to purchase an EESU for one of its systems it will be going through Lockhead Martin to integrate it.

Nothing about the military buying one unit, much less the whole capacity output from this company.
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Re: An overview of power generation methods for doomers

Unread postby tsakach » Tue 27 May 2008, 02:31:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('fletch_961', 'I') believe you are misinterpreting what that press release says. The only thing that says is if the military decides to purchase an EESU for one of its systems it will be going through Lockhead Martin to integrate it.

Nothing about the military buying one unit, much less the whole capacity output from this company.


Since Lockheed and the military are now involved, the specter of a patent secrecy order being applied to this technology is one of the possible explainations for some rather strange behavior surrounding this company.

For one thing, what happened to the website, eestor.com or eestore.us? Why did they take their corporate website down and transfer ownership of the domain name "eestor.com"?

And after all the hype initially made about the technology by Eestor CEO Richard Wier, why the sudden change in willingness to share information about his company? Why does he now make statements like this:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')yler Hamilton of the Toronto Star and website Clean Break has been digging around a very secretive company. Asking them for information they said: "EEStor is not making public statements at present time," company co-founder and chief executive Richard Weir replied when the Toronto Star requested an interview via email. "EEStor would also like to have you and your paper not publish any articles about our company and the Toronto Star is certainly not authorized to publish this response." which of course he published instantly in Canada's biggest newspaper.


You can't find this article about Eestor published by Toronto Star anymore - it appears to have been removed from their website.

EEStor Capacitors- "This could change everything"

And one of the partners of Kleiner Perkins, the venture capital outfit that invested $3 million in Eestor, is none other than Colin Powell:
Colin Powell to join Silicon Valley's Kleiner Perkins

One of the claims made about this technology is that "A 17-kilowatt-hour system could be fully charged in four to six minutes." To charge a 17 kilowatt hour capacitor in 1 hour would mean delivering electricity at a rate of 17,000 watts for a full hour. But charging the same amount in only 5 minutes means the rate is multiplied by a factor of 12 to 204,000 watts. This high rate of charge/discharge is possible due to the high voltage of the device - 3400 volts according to the literature. At 3400 volts, the charge rate is still only 60 amps for 204,000 watts.

Another claim is that the voltage could be increased further. Suppose you were able to multiply the voltage by 5 and further increase the capacity to 34 kwh. Then you would like to experiment with discharging the 34 kwh in just 1 minute at 120 amps. This would produce a whopping 2.04 megawatts for a full minute.

There are a lot of interesting things that could be done with a portable device capable of delivering 2 megawatts or maybe much higher. Things that the US Government would like to do, and at the same time, would not like to see people or other governments be able to do.

When Richard Weir was talking about it, here is something he said related to military applications:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')It's really tuned to the electronics we attach to it," explains Weir. "We can go all the way down from pacemakers to locomotives and direct-energy weapons."

MIT Technology Review: Battery Breakthrough

Make of this as you will, but if a secrecy order is applied it will only be used by the military if not just black shelved.
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Re: An overview of power generation methods for doomers

Unread postby fletch_961 » Tue 27 May 2008, 22:11:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ince Lockheed and the military are now involved, the specter of a patent secrecy order being applied to this technology is one of the possible explainations for some rather strange behavior surrounding this company.


Umm... ok.... you're one of of those people. And here I am, all out of tin foil.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')ake of this as you will, but if a secrecy order is applied it will only be used by the military if not just black shelved.


We have our best aliens at Area 51 working on perfecting it already. MIB agents are on there way to your house now to clear your memory of everything to do with EEstor. [smilie=new_alien.gif] [smilie=new_beammeup.gif]
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Re: An overview of power generation methods for doomers

Unread postby tsakach » Wed 28 May 2008, 00:42:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Invention Secrecy Act

The Invention Secrecy Act of 1951 requires the government to impose "secrecy orders" on certain patent applications that contain sensitive information, thereby restricting disclosure of the invention and withholding the grant of a patent. Remarkably, this requirement can be imposed even when the application is generated and entirely owned by a private individual or company without government sponsorship or support.


FAS: Invention Secrecy

Richard Wier was granted only one patent for his ultracapacitor invention. He also had an additional 17 patent applications in review and if any one of those had potential military applications, it may have been flagged under the invention secrecy act. In addition, severe penalties can be imposed for further disclosure of details on the invention.

Some of the categories the ultracapacitor invention patent applications could be flagged on are as follows:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')atent Security Patent Review List

Group IV Weapons, Countermeasure and Fire Control
Item 4.
"Directed energy or energy projection devices and systems in which electrical particles, wave radiations, or laser beams are
claimed to cause deleterious effects on human beings or machines."

Group XI Power Supplies
Item 1. Batteries, Secondary. for low or high temperature operation; Cells for extended low temperature storage. High energy per volume batteries (for submarines, torpedoes, warheads)

Item 11. Pulsed energy source for high powered lasers.


The hypothesis I am offering based on the limited available information, is that one of his patent applications was flagged under the invention secrecy act and he was barred from further disclosure of details on his invention.

It would also be much more profitable and perhaps more feasible to sell this technology for military applications rather than for cost-sensitive automotive or alternative energy storage applications. Until they figure out how to slow down the discharge rate without compromising storage density or introducing thermal issues, I would categorize this particular invention and company as another "wait and see" technology.

Maybe you have information that can rule out this hypothesis or have another hypothesis to offer. I was hoping for something better than the "tin foil" argument.
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