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Americanism: The good, the bad and the ugly

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: Americanism: The good, the bad and the ugly

Unread postby threadbear » Wed 21 May 2008, 01:39:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Micki', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')nteresting Miki. My background is Swedish on father's side and my brother visited for the first time, a couple of years ago. He had glowing reports of the country, but something about his descriptions of it, turned me off a bit. It was really odd. I can't put my finger on it, but I'm really glad my grandfather emigrated to Canada, when he did, because I don't think I could live there. I honestly think the people would get on my nerves


My ethnic background is actually Finnish, but I grew up in Sweden.
I think it used to be a great country and the Swedes are a great people, generally much more upbeat than for instance us Finns.
But the country has been slowly been dismantling its old cultures and manners and benefits.
A big issue I had was how government and media very blatantly told people what they should think. They have also for a long time worked on ruining the swedes self esteem and pride in them selves.
Examples are the Jante-law that dictates that noone should believe they are any better than anyone else. (Very old mind control).
Later ideas like it is racist to wear a swedish flag (i.e. on your jacket etc. Kids get sent home from schools for this), to sing the naitonal anthem (used to be tradition at end of term now many schools actually prohibit this) and so on.
Then they apply double standards when they encourage immigrants etc to hold on to their old cultures and be proud of them + encourage nationalism in places like Estonia (after breaking off from Sovjet.)

So in my view Sweden is a paradise lost.


Very messed up. I agree. We have a certain amount of that in Canada too. The "cultural mosaic" has been remarkably effective in melding together every different race, and every different character type. It's become a haven for international crime syndicates, in the last few years. Really pathetic. We have gangland slayings in Vancouver, quite frequently now, too. Our immigration department was actively courted at it's offshore offices (Hong Kong) by gangsters with a lot of cash. Lovely isn't it?
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Re: Americanism: The good, the bad and the ugly

Unread postby Pretorian » Wed 21 May 2008, 03:35:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Denny', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zensui', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Denny', '(')...)
When you look for extremes of achievement and generosity and education and wisdom you shuld start by looking in America.
(...)


:lol: now USA has Wisdom :lol: :lol: :lol:


Well, I meant American people. Like Warren Buffett or even the Dixie Chicks. Not the American government.


US government has way more wisdom than American people. After all, they govern them.
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Re: Americanism: The good, the bad and the ugly

Unread postby chumley » Wed 21 May 2008, 13:29:45

I am sick and tired of America bashing. Here is some good for the USA...it took me all of 5 minutes and a google search to return hundreds of web pages and articles that support this one article I will post as an example of the generosity and compassion of America.

Q. Are Americans more or less charitable than citizens of other countries?
A. No developed country approaches American giving. For example, in 1995 (the most recent year for which data are available), Americans gave, per capita, three and a half times as much to causes and charities as the French, seven times as much as the Germans, and 14 times as much as the Italians. Similarly, in 1998, Americans were 15 percent more likely to volunteer their time than the Dutch, 21 percent more likely than the Swiss, and 32 percent more likely than the Germans. These differences are not attributable to demographic characteristics such as education, income, age, sex, or marital status. On the contrary, if we look at two people who are identical in all these ways except that one is European and the other American, the probability is still far lower that the European will volunteer than the American.

http://www.american.com/archive/2008/ma ... -of-givers


America may have its faults and shortcomings, but it has furthered the cause of freedom and liberty more than any other country in human history.

The United Nations charter on Human Rights was based on and inspired by the US constitution and Bill of Rights.

I am damn proud to be an American and damn proud of this country and all the good deeds it and its citizens have done and ARE doing. Do I think it is perfect...hell no. Are there times when I completely disagree with what we are doing....yep. That is not cause to trash the country.

The American experiment in a free society is to date the most ambitious attempt in human history to allow people to be free and follow their dreams.
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Re: Americanism: The good, the bad and the ugly

Unread postby Nickel » Wed 21 May 2008, 14:59:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('chumley', 'I') am sick and tired of America bashing.


Nobody's bashing America, just the United States. :) There's a difference, you know, like it or not. I'm every bit as much an "American" as you are. But I'm not from the United States.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('chumley', 'Q'). Are Americans more or less charitable than citizens of other countries?
A. No developed country approaches American giving.


Well, first of all, 1995 was a lonnnnng time ago. Secondly, what exactly counts for "charity" in this example? Billions for keeping 'em flying in the Israeli air force? Contributions to the Gen. Pinochet Swiss Bank Account Retirement Fund? Money to help African countries control insurgents by planting land mines that kids will step on twenty years from now? I mean, did they categorize this stuff so we know how much more of it Washington doles out than the French, the Germans, etc., etc., etc.?


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('chumley', 'A')merica may have its faults and shortcomings


Like referring to itself as "America", in pigheaded disregard to the birthright of the people of thirty-some other countries in the hemisphere...


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('chumley', 'b')ut it has furthered the cause of freedom and liberty more than any other country in human history.


It's done a fair piece... but it's undone most of that good work by overthrowing inconvenient governments elsewhere, installing, aiding and abetting brutal dictatorships for generations on end, supporting torture, resisting liberation movements the world over that ought to have been its natural allies... No, you don't get to throw that old rubric in our faces. It's murky at best.
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Re: Americanism: The good, the bad and the ugly

Unread postby chumley » Wed 21 May 2008, 18:22:18

Nickel,

Excellent work, Thanks for making my point. Focus solely on the negatives and cast aside all the positive accomplishments of the United States of America( I usually put in America due to laziness, but I will now use USA even shorter and easier). No offense meant to my northern and southern neighbors.

I can list off all the negatives as well...hmmm...overthrowing Iraqs democratically elected leader in the 1960's or overthrowing Iran's democratically elected leader in the 1950's to name a couple. There is a very large pool to choose from. How about being cozy with a brutal dictatorship...Iraq in the 1980's Saudi Arabia today and for a long time, so on so forth.

Back on topic.....how often do all these negatives get beat around every second of every day all over the world.......countless air time, I mean it is all you ever hear about. Ad nauseum comes to mind.

Now how often do you hear about all the good we do as well???
There is no balance, it is just bash bash bash the USA.

This is what I am sick and tired about.

Stupidity, racism, greed, deceit, ignorance, hubris are all HUMAN traits and can be found in any country, in any population, in any government all over the world.

Challenge yourself to view the glass as half full and you will be amazed at all the good you will see.....soak yourself in negativity and you will get it back in spades.

Now since I have listed a few crappy aspects of the USA why don't you try to name a few positives?
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Re: Americanism: The good, the bad and the ugly

Unread postby Nickel » Wed 21 May 2008, 22:46:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('chumley', ' ')Excellent work, Thanks for making my point.


No, you're MISSING the point. The problem with the US isn't that only does bad things, it's that people like you ignore the bad things or excuse them by demanding we focus only on its moments of benevolence whenever a criticism is made. What I would prefer, what we all would like, is a United States capable of looking at the evil is has wrought, as well as polishing its laurels as it does so well, so endlessly, to the point of mythologizing itself, and find the courage to be self-critical enough to step back from the brink and stop doing those things. To really become a force for good and real champion of democracy, not just DEMOCRACY!!(reg.d trade mark, patent pend.). The US of Ben Franklin, not Ronald Reagan... and certainly not of GWB.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('chumley', 'N')ow since I have listed a few crappy aspects of the USA why don't you try to name a few positives?


Well, you know, we all sat through ten years of Schoolhouse Rock already. Look what it got us.
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Re: Americanism: The good, the bad and the ugly

Unread postby Pretorian » Thu 22 May 2008, 02:43:57

Chumley you are a great find for this forum. We need people like you here.
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Re: Americanism: The good, the bad and the ugly

Unread postby Cashmere » Thu 22 May 2008, 07:59:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nickel', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cashmere', 'J')ust like the 300 pound man laughing at the obesity of the 400 pound man doesn't make him fit.


It does make him fitter, however.


No, it makes him less unfit.
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Re: Americanism: The good, the bad and the ugly

Unread postby Nickel » Thu 22 May 2008, 09:10:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cashmere', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nickel', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cashmere', 'J')ust like the 300 pound man laughing at the obesity of the 400 pound man doesn't make him fit.


It does make him fitter, however.


No, it makes him less unfit.


Which, by definition, is fitter. All you're doing is moving the fulcrum of a verbal level in relative terms. The logical sequence runs:

X is less unfit than Y = X is more fit ("fitter") than Y.

Subtracting a negative number is logically equal to adding a positive number. The same holds true rhetorically.
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Re: Americanism: The good, the bad and the ugly

Unread postby burtonridr » Thu 22 May 2008, 19:09:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nickel', 'W')hat I would prefer, what we all would like, is a United States capable of looking at the evil is has wrought, as well as polishing its laurels as it does so well, so endlessly, to the point of mythologizing itself, and find the courage to be self-critical enough to step back from the brink and stop doing those things. To really become a force for good and real champion of democracy, not just DEMOCRACY!!(reg.d trade mark, patent pend.). The US of Ben Franklin, not Ronald Reagan... and certainly not of GWB.


I think there are a growing number of us that feel the same way, unfortunately there is a good majority here in the US that are brain washed.....

I gotta hand it to those guys in iraq that blow themselves up, I dont even have the balls to be the one that says enough is enough. When someone with the balls steps up and starts to protest I will be there...

I dont think that will happen before the fall of this once great nation.... Peak oil is going to rip it in half :cry:

But what goes up must come down I guess...
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Re: Americanism: The good, the bad and the ugly

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 23 May 2008, 03:50:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('burtonridr', '
')I gotta hand it to those guys in iraq that blow themselves up, I dont even have the balls to be the one that says enough is enough.



The people in Iraq who blow themselves up are mostly fundamentalist religious nuts who think they're going to meet Muhammad.
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