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THE Thermal Depolymerization Thread (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Postby 0mar » Mon 21 Feb 2005, 12:18:41

Frank, I can't find a link right now that puts it into hard barrels per day numbers, but I know the website of the company says something on the order of :

Currently, our one plant does 400 bpd, but the process is scalable to 1,000 bpd if the process is profitable.
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Postby pup55 » Mon 21 Feb 2005, 12:34:44

http://peakoil.com/fortopic505-30.html

There is some detail on the BTU inputs and outputs in this thread.

Unfortunately, those reptiles at CWT have pulled the technical papers off of their website, so the link to this diagram no longer works.

Also, I have been checking the local newspaper in Carthage MO to see if they are hiring, which they are not.
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Postby FrankRichards » Mon 21 Feb 2005, 20:38:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('0mar', 'F')rank, I can't find a link right now that puts it into hard barrels per day numbers, but I know the website of the company says something on the order of :

Currently, our one plant does 400 bpd, but the process is scalable to 1,000 bpd if the process is profitable.


I certainly see how you get the idea, but depending on context it sounds like he could also have been referring to upgrading _this_ plant, with no implications either way about what could be done in a new plant.

If the process is profitable we'll doubtless soon find out it it scales to a municipal sewage plant size.
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Postby RdSnt » Tue 22 Feb 2005, 09:44:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nero', 'O')ne factor to consider with TD is that the quality of the trash is important. Not just the energy content but the contamination. If the waste is homogenous and reliably contamination free then you're golden but what happens if you start throwing in real trash, then you will get oil contaminated with heavy metals that would be dangerously polluting.


Contamination is more complicated than that. Processing oil of any kind is a chemical process that is extremely sensitive to the chemical make up of the raw materials. This is why all oil from the ground is not equal, even though the general public thinks so.
So, with your heavy metal contamination, this could alter the nature of the resulting oil to such an extent that the chemical reactions used to "crack" the raw oil may simply not work at all.
Someone mentioned using turkey guts as a feed stock. A major factor in how to process this is whether there is food residue in the guts or have they been cleaned out. This would significantly alter the chemical makeup of the feedstock requiring different solutions.

It's not that we don't know how to do this, it is whether it is cost effective both in monetary terms and energy/technical terms. Neither is the case right now or the oil companies would be doing it.
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TDP

Postby Optimist » Tue 22 Feb 2005, 13:50:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')cceleration requires additional energy. In the end we don't have enough energy to convert the waste to oil in any type of positive EROEI calculation.

Acceleration requires heat. Much of the heat in a TD plant is recycled (steam from the first stage is condensed to heat incoming feed) which is why such high efficiency can be achieved, according to CWT. Apparently the energy you require for heating and all other process needs represent only 18% (15/85) of the energy in the fuel produced. Note much of the required energy is in the feedstock.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')lso it is good to keep in mind that we don't calculate the cost of the making of fossil fuel in our estimates for making a product. We should.

We should not, unless you are telling me that trash has value.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') third consideration is that waste is dispersed. If it must be trucked to a central TD processing unit to achieve the efficiencies of scale, that aslo is a significant cost.

Many big cities already collect the dispersed trash for disposal at a central facility. No additional energy required for collection.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you treat all biological waste this way, you are certainly not going to return it back to ecosystem (as fertilizer and base for next generation of plants/animals) but instead throw it into atmosphere as CO2.

CO2 is not fertilizer. The main constituents of fertilizer is nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium. According to the missing technical papers from CWT, much of the nitrogen in the feedstock will leave as ammonium sulphate, which can be used to make fertilizer. In addition, the mineral byproduct from the plant consists of 6% nitrogen, 38% phosphorus, 1% potassium, 34% calcium, etc. This byproduct is also available for making fertilizer. Think of fertilizer as similar to energy in this regard: it can't be made or destroyed. If anything, TDP converts the fertilizer from a stinking organic mess into a mineral product that would be much easier to handle.

See http://www.itcnet.org/Fire%20web%20site ... rocess.pdf for one of those "missing" papers.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ow large area of farmland do we need to capture enough energy from sun to power society.

Zero: We would be using existing waste, which currently goes to waste, if you will excuse the pun.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')hit and toilet paper from a million people now power about ten buses. That's it.

I don't think so. Most sewage treatment plants need gas to heat the anaerobic digesters that convert the waste to biogas. So the gas left to power vehicles is probably a small fraction of the total biogas produced. Compared to other waste streams (agricultural, solid waste, i.e. trash, etc.) sewage sludge is a small component.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o, with your heavy metal contamination, this could alter the nature of the resulting oil to such an extent that the chemical reactions used to "crack" the raw oil may simply not work at all.
True. According to CWT theyn have tested a number of different wastes, and was able to make the process work on all of them. So, I think your concern may already have been addressed. It is true that a plant designed for turkey guts probably cannot be converted to a different feedstock without a major redesign.
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Postby Eustacian » Tue 22 Feb 2005, 20:24:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Taskforce_Unity', 'T')hermo Depolarisation, Or the recycling of organic waste (bodies, corpses, manure etc.) into Oil.

I believe it is also called thermo Carbon depolarisation sometimes.


If someone hasn't beat me to it - it's Thermal Depolymerization.
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Postby MattSavinar » Sun 27 Feb 2005, 14:53:04

Capitalism being what it is, any company in possession of a technology that is likely to deliver results on a problem as big as foreign oil reliance/oil depletion/high gas prices etc. . ., usually doesn't need a grant from the governement to keep its head above water.

See:

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/smallbus ... 47,00.html

Technical machinations such as BTUs, EROEI, etc aside, this fact alone should tell us something, espcecially since it's not like this technology is "unknown" by the investor class at this point.

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Postby 0mar » Sun 27 Feb 2005, 15:51:00

With that article Matt posted, it should be obvious that TD doesn't solve the dilemna of the end of cheap oil.
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TDP

Postby Optimist » Mon 28 Feb 2005, 16:07:25

What Matt's article proves:
1. For TDP to work in Carthage, MO you need one of three things to happen:
1.1 Oil price to rise to ~$125/barrel, to sell their product for $100/barrel (not sure exactly when the production cost of $80/barrel converts into a nice profit)
1.2 Legislation to outlaw feeding animal parts to feedlot animals, as CWT was counting on when giving the process the green light. Unfortunately, the oil industry appears to be in control of the US government right now.
1.3 Get a biofuel tax break. Again, politics are clouding the issue.
2. TDP might still work if you don't have to pay for the waste and assuming CWT learned from this experience, the next plant may cost closer to $20 million than $30 million (same capacity).

An oil price of $125/barrel sounds high in today's market, but then PeakOil will change all that, making it a bargain, right?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')apitalism being what it is, any company in possession of a technology that is likely to deliver results on a problem as big as foreign oil reliance/oil depletion/high gas prices etc. . ., usually doesn't need a grant from the governement to keep its head above water.

Capitalism demands that they need to make a profit. The rest is just smoke and mirrors. As I tried to indicate above, in the right situation it might still work.

I predict that TDP will be back.
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Depolymerization Plants Fueling the Future?

Postby uNkNowN ElEmEnt » Fri 25 Mar 2005, 17:42:20

DISCOVER Vol. 24 No. 5 (May 2003)
Table of Contents

Anything into Oil
Technological savvy could turn 600 million tons of turkey guts and other waste into 4 billion barrels of light Texas crude each year
By Brad Lemley

Gory refuse, from a Butterball Turkey plant in Carthage, Missouri, will no longer go to waste. Each day 200 tons of turkey offal will be carted to the first industrial-scale thermal depolymerization plant, recently completed in an adjacent lot, and be transformed into various useful products, including 600 barrels of light oil.


In an industrial park in Philadelphia sits a new machine that can change almost anything into oil.
Really.
"This is a solution to three of the biggest problems facing mankind," says Brian Appel, chairman and CEO of Changing World Technologies, the company that built this pilot plant and has just completed its first industrial-size installation in Missouri. "This process can deal with the world's waste. It can supplement our dwindling supplies of oil. And it can slow down global warming."
Pardon me, says a reporter, shivering in the frigid dawn, but that sounds too good to be true.
"Everybody says that," says Appel. He is a tall, affable entrepreneur who has assembled a team of scientists, former government leaders, and deep-pocketed investors to develop and sell what he calls the thermal depolymerization process, or TDP. The process is designed to handle almost any waste product imaginable, including turkey offal, tires, plastic bottles, harbor-dredged muck, old computers, municipal garbage, cornstalks, paper-pulp effluent, infectious medical waste, oil-refinery residues, even biological weapons such as anthrax spores. According to Appel, waste goes in one end and comes out the other as three products, all valuable and environmentally benign: high-quality oil, clean-burning gas, and purified
minerals that can be used as fuels, fertilizers, or specialty chemicals for manufacturing.
Unlike other solid-to-liquid-fuel processes such as cornstarch into methanol, this one will accept almost any carbon-based feedstock. If a 175-pound man fell into one end, he would come out the other end as 38 pounds of oil, 7 pounds of gas, and 7 pounds of minerals, as well as 123 pounds of sterilized water. While no one plans to put people into a thermal depolymerization machine, an intimate human creation could become a prime feedstock. "There is no reason why we can't turn sewage, including human excrement, into a glorious oil," says engineer Terry Adams, a project
consultant. So the city of Philadelphia is in discussion with Changing World
Technologies to begin doing exactly that.
"The potential is unbelievable," says Michael Roberts, a senior chemical engineer for the Gas Technology Institute, an energy research group. "You're not only cleaning up waste; you're talking about distributed generation of oil all over the world."
"This is not an incremental change. This is a big, new step," agrees Alf Andreassen, a venture capitalist with the Paladin Capital Group and a former Bell Laboratories director.
The offal-derived oil, is chemically almost identical to a number two fuel oil used to heat homes.


Andreassen and others anticipate that a large chunk of the world's agricultural, industrial, and municipal waste may someday go into thermal depolymerization machines scattered all over the globe. If the process works as well as its creators claim, not only would most toxic waste problems become history, so would imported oil. Just converting all the U.S. agricultural waste into oil and gas would yield the energy equivalent of 4 billion barrels of oil annually. In 2001 the United States imported 4.2 billion barrels of oil. Referring to U.S. dependence on oil from the volatile Middle East, R. James Woolsey, former CIA director and an adviser to Changing World Technologies, says, "This technology offers a beginning of a way away from this."
But first things first. Today, here at the plant at Philadelphia's Naval Business Center, the experimental feedstock is turkey processing-plant waste: feathers, bones, skin, blood, fat, guts. A forklift dumps 1,400 pounds of the nasty stuff into the machine's first stage, a 350-horsepower grinder that masticates it into gray brown slurry. From there it flows into a series of tanks and pipes, which hum and hiss as they heat, digest, and break down the mixture. Two hours later, a white-jacketed technician turns a spigot. Out pours a honey-colored fluid, steaming a bit in the cold warehouse as it fills a glass beaker. It really is a lovely oil.
"The longest carbon chains are C-18 or so," says Appel, admiring the liquid. "That's a very light oil. It is essentially the same as a mix of half fuel oil, half gasoline."
Private investors, who have chipped in $40 million to develop the process, aren't the only ones who are impressed. The federal government has granted more than $12 million to push the work along. "We will be able to make oil for $8 to $12 a barrel," says Paul Baskis, the inventor of the process. "We are going to be able to switch to a carbohydrate economy."

Making oil and gas from hydrocarbon-based waste is a trick that Earth mastered long ago. Most crude oil comes from one-celled plants and animals that die, settle to ocean floors, decompose, and are mashed by sliding tectonic plates, a process geologists call subduction. Under pressure and heat, the dead creatures' long chains of hydrogen, oxygen, and carbon-bearing molecules, known as polymers, decompose into short-chain petroleum hydrocarbons. However, Earth takes its own sweet time doing this—generally thousands or millions of years—because subterranean heat and
pressure changes are chaotic. Thermal depolymerization machines turbocharge the process by precisely raising heat and pressure to levels that break the feedstock's long molecular bonds.
Many scientists have tried to convert organic solids to liquid fuel using waste products before, but their efforts have been notoriously inefficient. "The problem with most of these methods was that they tried to do the transformation in one step—superheat the material to drive off the water and simultaneously break down the molecules," says Appel. That leads to profligate energy use and makes it possible for hazardous substances to pollute the finished product. Very wet waste—and much of the world's waste is wet—is particularly difficult to process efficiently because driving off the water requires so much energy. Usually, the Btu content in the resulting oil or gas barely exceeds the amount needed to make the stuff.

That's the challenge that Baskis, a microbiologist and inventor who lives in Rantoul, Illinois, confronted in the late 1980s. He says he "had a flash" of insight about how to improve the basic ideas behind another inventor's waste-reforming process. "The prototype I saw produced a heavy, burned oil," recalls Baskis. "I drew up an improvement and filed the first patents." He spent the early 1990s wooing investors and, in 1996, met Appel, a former commodities trader. "I saw what this could be and took over the patents," says Appel, who formed a partnership with the Gas Technology Institute and had a demonstration plant up and running by 1999.
Thermal depolymerization, Appel says, has proved to be 85 percent energy efficient for complex feedstocks, such as turkey offal: "That means for every 100 Btus in the feedstock, we use only 15 Btus to run the process." He contends the efficiency is even better for relatively dry raw materials, such as plastics.

So how does it work? In the cold Philadelphia warehouse, Appel waves a long arm at the apparatus, which looks surprisingly low tech: a tangle of pressure vessels, pipes, valves, and heat exchangers terminating in storage tanks. It resembles the oil refineries that stretch to the horizon on either side of the New Jersey Turnpike, and in part, that's exactly what it is.

Appel strides to a silver gray pressure tank that is 20 feet long, three feet wide, heavily insulated, and wrapped with electric heating coils. He raps on its side. "The chief difference in our process is that we make water a friend rather than an enemy," he says. "The other processes all tried to drive out water. We drive it in, inside this tank, with heat and pressure. We super-hydrate the material." Thus temperatures and pressures need only be modest, because water helps to convey heat into the feedstock. "We're talking about temperatures of 500 degrees Fahrenheit and pressures of about 600 pounds for most organic material—not at all extreme or energy intensive. And the cooking times are pretty short, usually about 15 minutes."
Once the organic soup is heated and partially depolymerized in the reactor vessel, phase two begins. "We quickly drop the slurry to a lower pressure," says Appel, pointing at a branching series of pipes. The rapid depressurization releases about 90 percent of the slurry's free water. Dehydration via depressurization is far cheaper in terms of energy consumed than is heating and boiling off the water, particularly because no heat is wasted. "We send the flashed-off water back up there," Appel says, pointing to a pipe that leads to the beginning of the process, "to heat the incoming stream."
At this stage, the minerals—in turkey waste, they come mostly from bones—settle out and are shunted to storage tanks. Rich in calcium and magnesium, the dried brown powder "is a perfect balanced fertilizer," Appel says.

The remaining concentrated organic soup gushes into a second-stage reactor similar to the coke ovens used to refine oil into gasoline. "This technology is as old as the hills," says Appel, grinning broadly. The reactor heats the soup to about 900 degrees Fahrenheit to further break apart long molecular chains. Next, in vertical distillation columns, hot vapor flows up, condenses, and flows out from different levels: gases from the top of the column, light oils from the upper middle, heavier oils from
the middle, water from the lower middle, and powdered carbon—used to manufacture tires, filters, and printer toners—from the bottom. "Gas is expensive to transport, so we use it on-site in the plant to heat the process," Appel says. The oil, minerals, and carbon are sold to the highest bidders.

Depending on the feedstock and the cooking and coking times, the process can be tweaked to make other specialty chemicals that may be even more profitable than oil. Turkey offal, for example, can be used to produce fatty acids for soap, tires, paints, and lubricants. Polyvinyl chloride, or PVC—the stuff of house siding, wallpapers, and plastic pipes—yields hydrochloric acid, a relatively benign and industrially valuable chemical used to make cleaners and solvents. "That's what's so great about making water a friend," says Appel. "The hydrogen in water combines with the chlorine in PVC to make it safe. If you burn PVC [in a municipal-waste
incinerator], you get dioxin—very toxic."

Brian Appel, CEO of Changing World Technologies, strolls through a thermal depolymerization plant in Philadelphia. Experiments at the pilot facility revealed that the process is scalable—plants can sprawl over acres and handle 4,000 tons of waste a day or be "small enough to go on the back of a flatbed truck" and handle just one ton daily, says Appel.

The technicians here have spent three years feeding different kinds of waste into their machinery to formulate recipes. In a little trailer next to the plant, Appel picks up a handful of one-gallon plastic bags sent by a potential customer in Japan. The first is full of ground-up appliances, each piece no larger than a pea. "Put a computer and a refrigerator into a grinder, and that's what you get," he says, shaking the bag. "It's PVC, wood, fiberglass, metal, just a mess of different things. This process handles mixed waste beautifully." Next to the ground-up appliances is a plastic bucket of municipal sewage. Appel pops the lid and instantly regrets it. "Whew," he says. "That is nasty."

Experimentation revealed that different waste streams require different cooking and coking times and yield different finished products. "It's a two-step process, and you do more in step one or step two depending on what you are processing," Terry Adams says. "With the turkey guts, you do the lion's share in the first stage. With mixed plastics, most of the breakdown happens in the second stage." The oil-to-mineral ratios vary too. Plastic bottles, for example, yield copious amounts of oil, while tires yield more minerals and other solids. So far, says Adams, "nothing hazardous comes out from any feedstock we try."
"The only thing this process can't handle is nuclear waste," Appel says. "If it contains carbon, we can do it." This Philadelphia pilot plant can handle only seven tons of waste a day, but 1,054 miles to the west, in Carthage, Missouri, about 100 yards from one of ConAgra Foods' massive Butterball Turkey plants, sits the company's first commercial-scale thermal depolymerization plant. The $20 million facility,
scheduled to go online any day, is expected to digest more than 200 tons of turkey-processing waste every 24 hours.

The north side of Carthage smells like Thanksgiving all the time. At the Butterball plant, workers slaughter, pluck, parcook, and package 30,000 turkeys each workday, filling the air with the distinctive tang of boiling bird. A factory tour reveals the grisly realities of large-scale poultry processing. Inside, an endless chain of hanging carcasses clanks past knife-wielding laborers who slash away. Outside, a tanker truck idles, full to the top with fresh turkey blood. For many years, ConAgra Foods has trucked the plant's waste—feathers, organs, and other nonusable parts—to a
rendering facility where it was ground and dried to make animal feed, fertilizer, and other chemical products. But bovine spongiform encephalopathy, also known as mad cow disease, can spread among cattle from recycled feed, and although no similar disease has been found in poultry, regulators are becoming skittish about feeding animals to animals. In Europe the practice is illegal for all livestock. Since 1997, the United States has prohibited the feeding of most recycled animal waste to cattle. Ultimately, the specter of European-style mad-cow regulations may kick-start the
acceptance of thermal depolymerization. "In Europe, there are mountains of bones piling up," says Alf Andreassen. "When recycling waste into feed stops in this country, it will change everything."

Because depolymerization takes apart materials at the molecular level, Appel says, it is "the perfect process for destroying pathogens." On a wet afternoon in Carthage, he smiles at the new plant—an artless assemblage of gray and dun-colored buildings—as if it were his favorite child. "This plant will make 10 tons of gas per day, which will go back into the system to make heat to power the system," he says. "It will make 21,000 gallons of water, which will be clean enough to discharge into a municipal sewage system. Pathological vectors will be completely gone. It will make 11 tons of minerals and 600 barrels of oil, high-quality stuff, the same specs as a
number two heating oil." He shakes his head almost as if he can't believe it. "It's amazing. The Environmental Protection Agency doesn't even consider us waste handlers. We are actually manufacturers—that's what our permit says. This process changes the whole industrial equation. Waste goes from a cost to a profit."

He watches as burly men in coveralls weld and grind the complex loops of piping. A group of 15 investors and corporate advisers, including Howard Buffett, son of billionaire investor Warren Buffett, stroll among the sparks and hissing torches, listening to a tour led by plant manager Don Sanders. A veteran of the refinery business, Sanders emphasizes that once the pressurized water is flashed off, "the process is similar to oil refining.
The equipment, the procedures, the safety factors, the maintenance—it's all proven technology."
And it will be profitable, promises Appel. "We've done so much testing in Philadelphia, we already know the costs," he says. "This is our first-out
plant, and we estimate we'll make oil at $15 a barrel. In three to five years, we'll drop that to $10, the same as a medium-size oil exploration and production company. And it will get cheaper from there."
"We've got a lot of confidence in this," Buffett says. "I represent ConAgra's investment. We wouldn't be doing this if we didn't anticipate success." Buffett isn't alone. Appel has lined up federal grant money to help build demonstration plants to process chicken offal and manure in Alabama and crop residuals and grease in Nevada. Also in the works are plants to process turkey waste and manure in Colorado and pork and cheese waste in Italy. He says the first generation of depolymerization centers will be up and running in 2005. By then it should be clear whether the technology is as miraculous as its backers claim.
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Postby Ebyss » Fri 25 Mar 2005, 18:05:52

Without being unnecessarily cruel, do you think they could use rats in this plan? We could sure do without the excess of rats we have.
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nit picking

Postby EnviroEngr » Sat 26 Mar 2005, 21:20:38

To avoid any more duplication, browse through these threads first and determine which one tickles your fancy the most and comment accordingly:

http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic505.html

http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic3554.html

http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic191.html

Thanks.
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THE Turkey Oil Plant Thread (merged)

Postby gego » Wed 13 Apr 2005, 14:30:10

Apparantly there was a lot more hype to the thermal depolemerization process than reality.

http://springfield.news-leader.com/busi ... cesha.html
Last edited by Ferretlover on Sat 21 Mar 2009, 08:55:45, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Merge thread.
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Postby Aaron » Wed 13 Apr 2005, 14:56:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')It's rotten," said Carthage resident Beth Longstaff. "You can't get away from it. It's like something out of a horror movie."
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.

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Postby The_Virginian » Wed 13 Apr 2005, 15:06:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')ppel said if the federal government would ban feeding animal waste to animals, processing plants would pay him to take the waste because they wouldn't have any use for it.


What stop feeding other animal Sheiss to turkeys...

http://www.pcrm.org/magazine/GM97Autumn ... umn13.html

I thought that's whats called "stuffing"...mmm i think i'll have some juicy turkey leg for din din...

Pass the "wewe" sauce please!
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Postby lorenzo » Wed 13 Apr 2005, 15:36:22

Thermal depolymerization has long ago been exposed as a useless technology. It merely recycles oil into oil, losing lots of energy in the process.

Turkey gutts are pure oil. (You need lots of oil-based corn to feed turkeys).
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Postby FoxV » Wed 13 Apr 2005, 16:17:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd with a ConAgra turkey Butterball plant in town, he also figured he would be paid to take the turkey leftovers away.


hmm, you'd think he would have asked first before spending $40m :roll:

I actually read a congressman say the plant wasn't a good idea because ultimately there is no waste in turkey processing. You know the idea is bad when a politician can see the flaws
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Postby mortifiedpenguin » Wed 13 Apr 2005, 23:50:05

Ah, fuck.
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Postby FoxV » Thu 14 Apr 2005, 10:33:39

here's a more viable version of the same thing
Bio Oil
It uses actual waste organic materials. Currently set up for sawdust, but can include waste stalks and husks from Ethanol (that other Alternative fuel boon-doggle). It can also process turkey parts if they really wanted to :roll:

btw yes I do know bio-oil has been discussed already so I don't mean to get into here
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Postby big_rc » Tue 31 May 2005, 14:45:23

Here is a pretty good rebuttal of the TDP process that brought up a number of questions that I hadn't thought of. It's in the form of a rant by a chemist but it's a pretty fun read.

Comments on 'Changing World Technologies' Plan to

Anyway, enjoy. Anybody hear any news about that turkey guts plant?

EDIT ---------------

Here is the answer to my turkey guts question. It looks like a bust. Sorry folks. Doesn't look like to much here to get excited about.

Innovative Turkey-To-Oil Plant Eats Money, Spits Out Fowl Odor
Simon's Law: Everything put together falls apart sooner or later.

I don't think of all the misery, but of all the beauty that still remains.--Anne Frank
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big_rc
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