PeakOil is You
THE Human Nature Thread (merged)
THE Human Nature Thread (merged)
by Scooter_Rider » Mon 21 Feb 2005, 22:58:03
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')oderator's Note:This thread was split off from my The Big Picture post. The thread starts with Scooter's post, he was not the originator of the thread. The discussion seemed to warrant it's own thread.MQ
The typical American won't be weaned off of cheap oil and gas without a lot of kicking and screaming. That is why I don't see a peaceful, smooth transition into a powerdown future. When it comes to survival, people can be vicious and greedy. Just look at the typical American lifestyle. It has greed and selfishness written all over it. These days, success is based on your career, how much money you earn, how big of a house and SUV you drive, etc. I wish things would remain peaceful during the transition, but I just don't see that happening once we start having blackouts and gasoline shortages. The riots will eventually come and anarchy will ensue. Many humans are violent by nature. Self-sacrifice isn't in the American mainstream way of thinking. It's all about the ME ME ME mentality.
Last edited by Scooter_Rider on Tue 22 Feb 2005, 06:13:08, edited 5 times in total.
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by seahorse » Mon 21 Feb 2005, 23:01:15
Monte,
I agree that everything from debt, resources and all are unsustainable, but I just don't believe that people will change. I don't think human nature will allow a gradual die-off, I believe that some form of Malthusian crisis will ultimately solve the problem, either along the lines of disease like the avian bird flu or resource wars written by Klare and hoped for by the religious fundamentalist. People would not allow a depression to last very long, everyone will lash out, and with Nukes, problem solved, for awhile anyway.
I agree that everything from debt, resources and all are unsustainable, but I just don't believe that people will change. I don't think human nature will allow a gradual die-off, I believe that some form of Malthusian crisis will ultimately solve the problem, either along the lines of disease like the avian bird flu or resource wars written by Klare and hoped for by the religious fundamentalist. People would not allow a depression to last very long, everyone will lash out, and with Nukes, problem solved, for awhile anyway.
Last edited by seahorse on Mon 21 Feb 2005, 23:35:49, edited 1 time in total.
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by AnnaLivia » Mon 21 Feb 2005, 23:39:36
very little time, but cannot let it just go by yet again...
scooter-rider and seahorse, could you please provide one scrap of proof, genetic, biologic, anthropologic, historical, or otherwise, that human nature is violent?
einstein and freud couldn't do it. show me your proof of that statement, please.
and i don't mean repeat that we've always had wars. that is not what i am disputing. show me the evidence that that has come about BECAUSE OF HUMAN NATURE, and not because of pressures environmental or economic.
scooter-rider and seahorse, could you please provide one scrap of proof, genetic, biologic, anthropologic, historical, or otherwise, that human nature is violent?
einstein and freud couldn't do it. show me your proof of that statement, please.
and i don't mean repeat that we've always had wars. that is not what i am disputing. show me the evidence that that has come about BECAUSE OF HUMAN NATURE, and not because of pressures environmental or economic.
"O hell, here comes our funeral. Let us pry....for our missed understandings."
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by Scooter_Rider » Mon 21 Feb 2005, 23:46:10
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 's')cooter-rider and seahorse, could you please provide one scrap of proof, genetic, biologic, anthropologic, historical, or otherwise, that human nature is violent
Human history speaks for itself. Murder, torture, greed, road rage, opression, selfishness, today's violent movies, video games and television shows, military domination, mass genocide, and wars. If you don't think humans are a violent species, then you don't know much about human history. I am not talking about all humans, but many.
Put guns in the hands of 300 million starving and desperate Americans with no electricity or gasoline, and guess what happens? In times of desperation, humans can become extremely violent and agressive. It's that simple.
If and when our modern society has a hard crash due to peak oil, most people will not be sitting around meditating and hugging each other afterwards.
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by eric_b » Tue 22 Feb 2005, 00:06:31
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AnnaLivia', 'v')ery little time, but cannot let it just go by yet again...
scooter-rider and seahorse, could you please provide one scrap of proof, genetic, biologic, anthropologic, historical, or otherwise, that human nature is violent?
einstein and freud couldn't do it. show me your proof of that statement, please.
and i don't mean repeat that we've always had wars. that is not what i am disputing. show me the evidence that that has come about BECAUSE OF HUMAN NATURE, and not because of pressures environmental or economic.
scooter-rider and seahorse, could you please provide one scrap of proof, genetic, biologic, anthropologic, historical, or otherwise, that human nature is violent?
einstein and freud couldn't do it. show me your proof of that statement, please.
and i don't mean repeat that we've always had wars. that is not what i am disputing. show me the evidence that that has come about BECAUSE OF HUMAN NATURE, and not because of pressures environmental or economic.
First off, another nice thread. I've always been aware of the
'big picture' - it's one of my strengths (at least I'd like to think).
Imagine, a mere 300 hundred years ago most of North America
was very lightly populated. Now look at it.
Most people aren't that curious, and they don't care much beyond
who's boinking whom and the next paycheck. Sad, but true.
And, being aware of the 'big picture' can often be a burden. It
makes you aware that really all you can hope to change is
yourself. The forces at work are so great.
And I'm staggered by Anna's post. Are you deaf, dumb and
blind? The burden of proof is on you to prove the human species
is NOT violent. Modern western society is violent, to its very
core. An animal will kill to survive and to eat. Humans will
kill each other over a mere idea. Humans will kill out of
spite, anger and viciousness. And if you don't think
wars are a product of human nature, how do you explain
them then? The very economic pressures that cause war
are created by yet more violence - the notion of property,
ownership, 'me' and 'mine' are violent -- if they're not,
then why do they lead to war?
I'm not one of those people that thinks humans are intrinsically
good or evil. I'd say to be human means the good and the
evil are equally mixed. Yin and Yang. Please, let's not pretend
we live in some sort of Disney world.
-Eric B
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by Scooter_Rider » Tue 22 Feb 2005, 00:08:49
Are humans violent? Just ask any police officer that works the streets.
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by seahorse » Tue 22 Feb 2005, 00:18:26
Annalivia,
I'm not saying people are intrinsically bad. I'm saying people don't willingly reduce their standard of living. People won't willingly reduce where they are at and quit going in debt, quit populating, quit consuming resources (until a Malthusian crisis resolves the problem like the plague did when population exceeded the ability to take care of it in Europe). Again, though, people constantly seeking to "improve" doesn't mean they are intrinsically good or bad.
The proof that people are unwilling to reduce their standard of living, meaning quit having babies, quit consuming (as a culture) is the fact that they never have. Birth rates continually go up and the amount of resources burned goes up. There are no exceptions to this rule as a whole, when applied to the world at large. Even cave man constantly tried to improve his condition, that's survival 101, always improve your condition. Some people on this forum somehow believe that cave man was different from us, but he was the same, that's why we're here, constant "improvement." If there had been no change, we would still be hunting wooly mamoths. Again, though, that's not a statement people are intrinsically bad. I agree that its more like pointing out the yin/yang of human society, or the idea that a persons greatest strength is also his greatest weakness. Our great strength has been our ability to manipulate the environment and "improve" our condition by domination of it. However, that is also going to be our greatest weakness, in that it will likely cause a mass die off unless something happens that we can't foresee right now. Unless we quit having babies, which not even the Chinese have been able to stop, and quit drinking water and burning oil and coal, a malthusian crisis will take us, or a lot of us.
I'm not saying people are intrinsically bad. I'm saying people don't willingly reduce their standard of living. People won't willingly reduce where they are at and quit going in debt, quit populating, quit consuming resources (until a Malthusian crisis resolves the problem like the plague did when population exceeded the ability to take care of it in Europe). Again, though, people constantly seeking to "improve" doesn't mean they are intrinsically good or bad.
The proof that people are unwilling to reduce their standard of living, meaning quit having babies, quit consuming (as a culture) is the fact that they never have. Birth rates continually go up and the amount of resources burned goes up. There are no exceptions to this rule as a whole, when applied to the world at large. Even cave man constantly tried to improve his condition, that's survival 101, always improve your condition. Some people on this forum somehow believe that cave man was different from us, but he was the same, that's why we're here, constant "improvement." If there had been no change, we would still be hunting wooly mamoths. Again, though, that's not a statement people are intrinsically bad. I agree that its more like pointing out the yin/yang of human society, or the idea that a persons greatest strength is also his greatest weakness. Our great strength has been our ability to manipulate the environment and "improve" our condition by domination of it. However, that is also going to be our greatest weakness, in that it will likely cause a mass die off unless something happens that we can't foresee right now. Unless we quit having babies, which not even the Chinese have been able to stop, and quit drinking water and burning oil and coal, a malthusian crisis will take us, or a lot of us.
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by 0mar » Tue 22 Feb 2005, 01:35:20
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AnnaLivia', 'v')ery little time, but cannot let it just go by yet again...
scooter-rider and seahorse, could you please provide one scrap of proof, genetic, biologic, anthropologic, historical, or otherwise, that human nature is violent?
einstein and freud couldn't do it. show me your proof of that statement, please.
and i don't mean repeat that we've always had wars. that is not what i am disputing. show me the evidence that that has come about BECAUSE OF HUMAN NATURE, and not because of pressures environmental or economic.
scooter-rider and seahorse, could you please provide one scrap of proof, genetic, biologic, anthropologic, historical, or otherwise, that human nature is violent?
einstein and freud couldn't do it. show me your proof of that statement, please.
and i don't mean repeat that we've always had wars. that is not what i am disputing. show me the evidence that that has come about BECAUSE OF HUMAN NATURE, and not because of pressures environmental or economic.
I think this suffices.
http://www.warscholar.com/Timeline.html
It is human nature to fight. After fucking and eating, this is what we do best. We've been doing it since time immemorial and we will do it long after my bones and your bones are turned to dust.
Joseph Stalin
"It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything. "
"It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything. "
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