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Amor Fati - We have no choice...

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Do you feel you have any influence/choice over how the collapse of homo sapien [i]sapien[/i] plays out?

Like a pebble smoothed over time in a river - no influence
18
No votes
Where are the cops to arrest the "leaders" ? - yes, if I were king things would be different
8
No votes
 
Total votes : 26

Amor Fati - We have no choice...

Unread postby roccman » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 11:00:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')Love of fate, that we would have nothing different; neither backward nor forward nor through all eternity. That we would not despise fate, but love it." - Nietzsche


So here we are...on the precipice of the great plung of mankind down the falls...

Do you feel you have any influence/choice over how the collapse of homo sapien sapien plays out?

Or are you watching time - to position and prepare so that a small clan may emerge from the bottleneck?

This post was influenced by John Weber at Jay Hanson's Killer Ape Peak Oil group.
"There must be a bogeyman; there always is, and it cannot be something as esoteric as "resource depletion." You can't go to war with that." Emersonbiggins
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Re: Amor Fati - We have no choice...

Unread postby evilgenius » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 11:27:41

If I were king things would already be different now.
When it comes down to it, the people will always shout, "Free Barabbas." They love Barabbas. He's one of them. He has the same dreams. He does what they wish they could do. That other guy is more removed, more inscrutable. He makes them think. "Crucify him."
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Re: Amor Fati - We have no choice...

Unread postby Specop_007 » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 11:40:17

Its rather interesting when one thinks about it. No one could really change things on a grand scale. Imagine someone stepping up and stating "You need to give up your car".....The push back from "We the people" would be incredible. The king who said such things wouldnt be king for long.

I think the greatest problem facing humanity is our unwillingness to change. Those who can embrace changes, many that are percieved as worse, will fare much better.

As to the question, I have no illusions as to where I stand. I'm but 1 tree in a forest. Perhaps I can provide shade for those around me but thats as far as it shall go I'm afraid.
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Re: Amor Fati - We have no choice...

Unread postby Kaj » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 13:49:30

"Never doubt that a small group of commited citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."

--Margeret Mead
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Re: Amor Fati - We have no choice...

Unread postby Kaj » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 13:54:38

Its not just about being king (though that would help). The people as a whole have all the power, if they wanted it. All that is needed is a change in consciousness. I think that's coming, slowly but surely.

‘consciousness will eventually remake the world in its own image’

--Hegel
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Re: Amor Fati - We have no choice...

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 14:00:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kaj', '"')Never doubt that a small group of commited citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."

--Margeret Mead


Ok, let's get on it. :)


What are your specific suggestions about what to do to change the collapse?
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Re: Amor Fati - We have no choice...

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 14:02:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kaj', 'A')ll that is needed is a change in consciousness.


Really? You mean we don't actually have to do anything, just "change our consciousness"?


Whew! I'm so relieved, I was afraid I was going to have to work or something.
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Re: Amor Fati - We have no choice...

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 14:05:26

The avalanche has already begun. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.
The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Amor Fati - We have no choice...

Unread postby Kaj » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 14:27:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kaj', '"')Never doubt that a small group of commited citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."

--Margeret Mead


Ok, let's get on it. :)

What are your specific suggestions about what to do to change the collapse?


Some kind of systemic collapse, or hopefully powerdown is necessary. But this by itself is not the 'fate' of the human race. There will be a plethora of ways in which humans choose to organise themselves afterwards.

We can reduce our levels of consumption and waste by 75% and still have totally fulfilling lives, probably much more fulfilling than our current ones, so we are not doomed into any kind of miserable predicament if we don't want it.

I'm sure you already know some of my recommendations. Ultimately I think the world elite must be removed from power (and replaced with a more democratic and egalitarian system). The PTB are the promoters of this exhorbitant system.

But there are plenty of smaller necessary steps along the way. Foremost we must protest the 'war on Terror' and demand that resources squandered therein are put to good use.

Linked to this, we must absolutely defend the democracy that previous generations have struggled to achieve. Democracy in the West is is being systematically dismantled by privitisation of virtually everything (placing power outside oversight), monied special interests and militarism.
There are lots of groups that you can join to get involved in that kind of thing, alternative media, anti-torture etc.

I recommend the protest route for systemic change--it has worked for extending the franchise, feminism, environmentalism, unionism and a whole range of issues throughout history.
We just needn't feel so disempowered.
I think the key is organising. Creating networks of issue groups.
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Re: Amor Fati - We have no choice...

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 14:55:18

Image
Turn those Machines back On! - Don Ameche in Trading Places
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Re: Amor Fati - We have no choice...

Unread postby Kaj » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 15:34:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kaj', 'A')ll that is needed is a change in consciousness.


Really? You mean we don't actually have to do anything, just "change our consciousness"?

Whew! I'm so relieved, I was afraid I was going to have to work or something.


I didn't mean that a change of consciousness is all that is needed period.

I mean't that a change of consciousness is all that is needed for people to realise their potential and feel empowered. THEN people can organise. Then people can do something in the material world.

Raising consciousness (amongst others, not just ourselves) is always the first step. And it is hard work, as anyone trying to explain PO must have experienced. Ultimately, it has dividends though. Truth gets out eventually.
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Re: Amor Fati - We have no choice...

Unread postby Ferretlover » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 15:59:18

Sexist poll... shouldn't that read "king/queen??" :evil:
"Open the gates of hell!" ~Morgan Freeman's character in the movie, Olympus Has Fallen.
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Re: Amor Fati - We have no choice...

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 16:08:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kaj', '
')I recommend the protest route for systemic change-


What sorts of protests have you launched to instigate the kind of change you want to see? Do you know of any protest groups forming to promote the kind of change you want to see?
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Re: Amor Fati - We have no choice...

Unread postby roccman » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 16:09:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ferretlover', 'S')exist poll... shouldn't that read "king/queen??" :evil:


Sorry

I tried to edit, but poll questions are non-editable after posting.

My bad.
"There must be a bogeyman; there always is, and it cannot be something as esoteric as "resource depletion." You can't go to war with that." Emersonbiggins
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Re: Amor Fati - We have no choice...

Unread postby Kaj » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 16:44:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kaj', '
')I recommend the protest route for systemic change-


What sorts of protests have you launched to instigate the kind of change you want to see? Do you know of any protest groups forming to promote the kind of change you want to see?


I helped to form a Stop the War society at my university. We arranged protests when both Tony Blair and Gordon Brown visited the area.
In a smaller capacity, I have also been involved in campaigns for nuclear disarmament, gay rights, environmental campaigns and other issues. The more you are involved in activism, the more you realise that all these things are interconnected.

In general, the membership of such groups above tend to be highly conscious of one another's issues. Just so, previous generations of struggle were never about one issue. The combination of such struggles of all issues of justice head towards a better society.
:)
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Re: Amor Fati - We have no choice...

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 16:46:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kaj', '[')the more you realise that all these things are interconnected.


How do you see them being related to collapse?

What sort of protests do you think would be valuable in directing collapse?
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Re: Amor Fati - We have no choice...

Unread postby highlander » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 17:02:48

As long as the protests remain in the "allowed" realms, things will not change. Maybe when we start protesting losses of fundamental freedoms, TPTB will start paying attention. Oh, yes, by protesting, i don't mean walking around with signs and shouting stupid slogans.
How about stepping out of "free speech" zones when the dignitary de jour is in town
how about assembling at the jail when someone is unlawfully "detained"
how about refusing to pay income taxes in protest of the gov'ts meddling in soveriegn nations affairs
how about standing up to local commisioners, or at least voting them out of office, when they invoke emminent domain to enrich some private entity.

Thoreu went to jail for his stands. we (yes, that includes me) aren't really that concerned because it (the loss of freedoms) always happens to "the other guy" (or gals for you PC fascists)

we all have a choice. Do we pay the price or not. Freedom is not free.

And my rant doesn't have much to do with physical collapse.
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Re: Amor Fati - We have no choice...

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 17:04:25

highlander, are you prepared to take any of those actions?
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Re: Amor Fati - We have no choice...

Unread postby jasonraymondson » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 17:07:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'h')ighlander, are you prepared to take any of those actions?


I would doubt that he is. Nobody wants to be put into prison and gang raped.
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Re: Amor Fati - We have no choice...

Unread postby Kaj » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 17:19:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kaj', '[')the more you realise that all these things are interconnected.


How do you see them being related to collapse?

What sort of protests do you think would be valuable in directing collapse?


Firstly, what do you mean by "collapse"?

We maybe aren't talking about the same things here.

We are going to have to drastically reduce our consumption for sure. That will cause certain human systems to collapse, but not humanity in general.
For starters this can be mitigated with a managed powerdown. Social movements are key to this, we can't rely on the government-corporate nexuses to do this without pressure from below.

Environmental movements advocate less consumption, less destruction. Antiwar movements advocate that we spend our money differently to change our energy policy. Anti-capitalist movents advocate less waste, less luxury, more sharing etc. etc.
There will probably be an economic collapse, but there is no reason to equate that will collapse of the homo sapien.

The second aspect relates to the collapse of Human society, which is quite a prevalent theme on these boards. It is possible that humankind will relapse into some kind of savage and possibly feudalistic dark age. I am also fearful of this scenario, but I do not think it is inevitable, not so long as popular struggles continue.
We can quite easily powerdown into a democratic society without it having to turn feudal.
All of the protests I have mentioned contribute to creating a lively, resilient civil society which would be resistent to such a despotic formation.
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