[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gollum', 'I') think as a nation we should drill ANWR, CA, and FL with the understanding that these are to be used as a bridge to a sustainable economy, not to extend business as usual. We are not mentally to that point yet.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'T')here is no bridge to a sustainable economy that can be built with more oil exploration.

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gollum', 'I') think as a nation we should drill ANWR, CA, and FL with the understanding that these are to be used as a bridge to a sustainable economy, not to extend business as usual. We are not mentally to that point yet.

[GoghGoner]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'h')owever, it isn't going to happen as long as environmentalists scare people with the claims that "forests" and "tigers" would be destroyed by ANWR development.

[Kingcoal]

Regarding ANWAR, I think we are seeing one of the oftentimes discussed consequences of peak oil - it takes oil to produce oil. Bringing oil fields online with cheap oil is one thing, doing it with expensive oil is something else. As more oil gets diverted into the pursuit of new oil, it feeds into the pricing mechanism and drives oil prices even higher. The problem is one of production volume. It's not that there isn't enough oil, it's that it's scattered all over the place. Unlike big fields like Gahwar, these puny reservoirs just don't yield enough once the work is done. In other words, not only is the EROEI low, but the production rate/volume is low. From an economic standpoint, it's oftentimes just not worth it to pursue.

I've noticed that this is something that most people have a very hard time grasping and has to do with the fact that oil is literally the basis currency which all paper currencies are based on. Oils worth is based on it being plentiful. As it becomes less plentiful, at some point, it's value starts to go down because it can't do the job anymore. If you have a machine that requires 20 million barrels a day to run and you can't supply it cheaply at that rate, the machine starts to break down and thus the demand shrinks. Either the oil is cheap or it isn't worth running the machine on it anymore. That's where we are at right now. Our machine (economy) needs cheap oil or it isn't worth running the economy in the same manor. The machine does not exist to consume oil, it exists to provide a standard of living and create "wealth." We control the machine with our behavior. As the machine consumes more wealth than it produces, it becomes obsolete and will be restructured into something else. That probably means a lower standard of living and far less wealth production, but hey, we'll take whatever we can get.

[dunewalker]

Please correct me if this is wrong, but I understand that much of the oil from Prudhoe Bay ended up in Asia, not the U.S. The oil from ANWR probably would too then, as it's more cost-effective to ship it there. If so, the calculations about what percent of U.S consumption might be met is irrelevant---the real calculations need to be what percent of global consumption would be met by sacrificing the last of the environmentally pristine areas. ANWR would be profitable for oil companies, but would do virtually nothing to fuel America. The question of saving such oil for a transition to a sustainable economy was answered when Ronald Reagan took office. The answer was a resounding "NO!" This was re-emphasized by Dick Cheney's "The American way of life is non-negotiable". The "American way of life" has no room for such nonsense as sustainability. As one of my former co-workers responded one day when I asked him why he drove 1/4 mile to work: "It's my American right to use as much gas as I want"...

[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'T')here is no bridge to a sustainable economy that can be built with more oil exploration.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dunewalker', 'P')lease correct me if this is wrong, but I understand that much of the oil from Prudhoe Bay ended up in Asia, not the U.S. The oil from ANWR probably would too then, as it's more cost-effective to ship it there. If so, the calculations about what percent of U.S consumption might be met is irrelevant---the real calculations need to be what percent of global consumption would be met by sacrificing the last of the environmentally pristine areas. ANWR would be profitable for oil companies, but would do virtually nothing to fuel America. The question of saving such oil for a transition to a sustainable economy was answered when Ronald Reagan took office. The answer was a resounding "NO!" This was re-emphasized by Dick Cheney's "The American way of life is non-negotiable". The "American way of life" has no room for such nonsense as sustainability. As one of my former co-workers responded one day when I asked him why he drove 1/4 mile to work: "It's my American right to use as much gas as I want"...

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'T')here is no bridge to a sustainable economy that can be built with more oil exploration.

[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'T')here is no bridge to a sustainable economy that can be built with more oil exploration.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '
')Do you think that our energy related problems are the result of not drilling enough, or a result of the early stages of peak oil?

If the problem is we are not drilling enough, then drilling in ANWR makes perfect sense.

If the problem is peak oil, then drilling in ANWR may cause us to waste precious years wallowing in a false sense of security that there isn't really a resource depletion problem at all. But once we run through the ANWR oil, much like the newest credit card in my analogy, we may find that we are not back where we started, but actually worse off, because we will be several years farther along the peak oil timeline and still will not have given it serious thought because we were too busy sucking on the ANWR tit.

[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'O')f course, it is also possible that you benefit personally from blocking ANWR or from ever-higher gas prices, and that is influencing your opposition to ANWR.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '
')I would just hate to see us do it, and then be surprised to find that it does almost nothing to help solve the energy problem, and in the meantime no other mitigation steps have been taken because people were banking on ANWR.

[Plantagenet]

The political reality in the US is that "alternative energy" and global warming" are being used as excuses not to do more drilling.

[crossthread]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TreeFarmer', 'A') number of exploratory wells were drilled off of the southeast coast back in the 1980's. What was or was not found was not publicized.

TF

[Plantagenet]

Bush made a speech on the energy crisis.

He called for ANWR to be drilled.

The dems in Congress indicated they won't open ANWR.

They are more worried about the ravings of Pastor Wright then the price of gas right now.

[efarmer]

I have a wealthy friend with a 2nd house on the beach in
Florida and he is a staunch Republican. He always rants on
how the tree huggers won't let the Republicans "solve the
supply issue" by drilling ANWR. I decided to change the
old rant on him by agreeing we should open ANWR,
but I added the caveat that first we should drill the
Florida coast and get all the crude we can in good
weather conditions that is close to the refineries in
Louisiana and Texas.

He went absolutely apeshit. ANWR is patriotic and
the right thing to do, Florida is for rich people and
they don't like the production side of petroleum one
bit, they just like the profits and the fuel for their
SUV's and watercraft. He went on and on, Florida
is densely populated, it is beautiful, it is a tourist
mecca, and I asked him if Alaska while sparsely
populated was really just trash for cash for the
lower 48. He said he wasn't sure, and had never
had the desire to go there, too cold.

At least I didn't have to hear the same old rant.

[TheDude]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'B')ush made a speech on the energy crisis.

He called for ANWR to be drilled.

The dems in Congress indicated they won't open ANWR.

They are more worried about the ravings of Pastor Wright then the price of gas right now.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', '
')
ANWR, or ANWAR as it's often presciently spelled by the uninformed, will have some holes in it within a few years.

[crossthread]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('crossthread', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TreeFarmer', 'A') number of exploratory wells were drilled off of the southeast coast back in the 1980's. What was or was not found was not publicized.

TF