[cube]

Convenience which is often associated with time savings is unfortunately often Inefficient which is associated with energy consumption.

examples:
1) fast food drive ins: you don't even have to step out of your car but unfortunately you're car is still burning gasoline while idling

2) single passenger car ridership: everybody knows that squeezing 30 people onto a bus is more efficient then putting 30 cars on the road but wow is it convenient to be able to walk only 25 feet from your sofa in the living room to your car parked in the driveway. That sure beats walking 250 feet to the nearest bus stop!

3) prepackaged foods - imagine the myriad number of examples from individually wrapped cheese slices to single serving prepackaged Jello pudding desserts. Even if you recycle the packaging energy was still consumed in it's production. But who wants to buy a big block of meat and slice it into lunch meat when you can just buy it prepackaged!

4) etc...

The optimists quite often say we can be more efficient. That may be true but the "Inconvenient Truth" (no pun intended) is:
Efficiency is the sacrificing of conveniences in life.

[americandream]

I guess your comment raises the question, are the energy reserves of the human race (hard as well as potential), subject to limitation?

[bodigami]

It's a matter of the usage of energy into something that has better RO(Energy)I. Since environmental costs are externalised from the economy and geological limitations where not acknowledged in the price of oil until Peak Oil, then Oil is cheaper than it should be. If our civilization was wiser; burning oil will be more expensive than now just with the damage of the climate and prohibitely expensive for most including geological limits.

[patience]

Cube's right. Our family has lived with scratch cooking, clotheslines, home canned food, home baked bread, gardens, wood heat, and farmed with horses. These things are not the convenient way. In striving for self sufficiency, we quickly ran up against the limits of what we could accomplish ourselves, and learned about specialization and division of labor benefits the hard way. No doubt in my mind.

BUT. That's where we're headed.

[yesplease]

It depends on the examples of inefficiency used. On one hand, things such as insulating a house, switching to CFLs, switching to more efficient appliances (eg computers, fridges, etc...), removing parasitic loads when not in use, getting a smaller more efficient vehicle and driving more efficiently, etc... tend to pay themselves off very quickly, and save money after that. The increase in time required to do these things is small compared to the alternative of not doing them and having to work more over the years in order to pay for the additional energy usage.

That being said, evidently, a lot of people have no problem working 40 hours per week in order to drive a large inefficient vehicle and go through drive-thrus eating lots of prepackaged/prepared food. I depends on what people want to do with their time. If they want more free time and less work, efficiency/alternatives generally allows them to achieve this. If they enjoy working and spending money, then they will generally spend all they earn on what they can.

So... It really depends on how someone compares the inconvenience of having to work more to the inconvenience of having to drive a more efficient car, or insulate their house, or not eat out, etc... In terms of free time efficiency is the way to go, but in terms of social status, ie having a nicer car or eating more expensive food, then working (and dying IMO) like a dog is where it's at.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('patience', 'C')ube's right. Our family has lived with scratch cooking, clotheslines, home canned food, home baked bread, gardens, wood heat, and farmed with horses. These things are not the convenient way. In striving for self sufficiency, we quickly ran up against the limits of what we could accomplish ourselves, and learned about specialization and division of labor benefits the hard way. No doubt in my mind.
....

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zensui', 'I')t's a matter of the usage of energy into something that has better RO(Energy)I.

[yesplease]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zensui', 'I')t's a matter of the usage of energy into something that has better RO(Energy)I.

[kjmclark]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', 'I')t depends on the examples of inefficiency used. On one hand, things such as insulating a house, switching to CFLs, switching to more efficient appliances (eg computers, fridges, etc...), removing parasitic loads when not in use, getting a smaller more efficient vehicle and driving more efficiently, etc... tend to pay themselves off very quickly, and save money after that. The increase in time required to do these things is small compared to the alternative of not doing them and having to work more over the years in order to pay for the additional energy usage.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kjmclark', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', 'I')t depends on the examples of inefficiency used. On one hand, things such as insulating a house, switching to CFLs, switching to more efficient appliances (eg computers, fridges, etc...), removing parasitic loads when not in use, getting a smaller more efficient vehicle and driving more efficiently, etc... tend to pay themselves off very quickly, and save money after that. The increase in time required to do these things is small compared to the alternative of not doing them and having to work more over the years in order to pay for the additional energy usage.

[FreakOil]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kjmclark', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', 'I')t depends on the examples of inefficiency used. On one hand, things such as insulating a house, switching to CFLs, switching to more efficient appliances (eg computers, fridges, etc...), removing parasitic loads when not in use, getting a smaller more efficient vehicle and driving more efficiently, etc... tend to pay themselves off very quickly, and save money after that. The increase in time required to do these things is small compared to the alternative of not doing them and having to work more over the years in order to pay for the additional energy usage.

[Duende]

kmjclark wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n a society built on conspicuous displays of consuming fossil fuels, using less energy either means you can't afford to consume or you're some counter-culture type.

[yesplease]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kjmclark', 'A')dding insulation, for example, was a major weekend project. Since it was the second layer of insulation in our attic, the payoff won't come *that* fast. *Very* inconvenient. I have to take the compact fluorescent bulbs to a special recycling center because they have mercury in them. What a pain.

[yesplease]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'T')he problem with yesplease's examples is that it's nothing more than taking "baby steps".

[MrBill]

Sweat equity means substituting one's time or labor for money. Effectively there is a trade-off. If I am retired and have a lot of surplus time then I can do most things by myself because I am discounting the value of my labor. However, when I am working I am not reducing my costs, but maximizing my income.

I am not necessarily using more energy because I am working at my job earning income versus working at home producing sweat equity. I can trade my income earned for an energy efficient home and solar panels on the roof. I do not have to install them myself.

On the otherhand I can give up some nights and weekends when I am not working in any case to do jobs around the house. However, I have to ask myself whether that time is better spent learning Russian, social networking or working on my PhD that will have a higher return on my investment of time?

As for social status for me that is no debt and money in the bank, and has everything to do with class and nothing to do with conspicuous consumption. You cannot buy class. Either you have it or you do not.

So therefore it is quite beside the point whether I walk or bike to work or drive a smaller fuel efficient car versus a newer luxury model. It is enough to know that I can afford to drive any car that I want. So I do not have to! The same for my apartment. I live near my office and close to the beach. I do not need a larger villa further away to impress others. So I don't! ; - ))

[kpeavey]

Way back in the day, before dual income households, there was a demographic group called "Housewives". One spouse would work a full time job, bringing home the bacon, the other would be at home cooking it. Cheap energy allowed both to work outside the home, with some of the additional income being spent on precooked bacon.

The convenience of cheap energy offers the populations of the developed world a vast amount of time, often invested in watching Oprah, shopping for more conveniences, and discarding/replacing worn out goods.

A Peak Oil induced recession/depression will bring back the housewife. Consumer purchasing habits will change as the newly unemployed find ways to stretch their now limited income. Families will go back to one vehicle per household. The kids will walk to school and soccer practice, and mow lawns with a reel mower. Julia Child reruns will be all the rage as people are forced to relearn the skills lost to prepackaged lifestyles.

Life's Instructional Manual was tossed out, replaced with a Sears Catalog. People in many walks of life will have to relearn simple survival skills. Baking bread, making pasta, growing potatoes, dressing a chicken, home canning, turning out the lights, reusing empty shopping bags, mending socks, making quilts.

People are in for a shock to their lifestyles. Part of the shock will be the loss of time needed to do all these chores. Part of the shock will be the time needed to learn how. Part of the shock will be giving up the double lattee with cinnamon. Operating a household is a full time endeavor, and that's if you know what you are doing.

[MrBill]

kpeavy wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')ife's Instructional Manual was tossed out, replaced with a Sears Catalog. People in many walks of life will have to relearn simple survival skills. Baking bread, making pasta, growing potatoes, dressing a chicken, home canning, turning out the lights, reusing empty shopping bags, mending socks, making quilts.