[MrBill]

BigTex wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')rBill to what extent does economic analysis provide a solution to the problem of sustainable vs. non-sustainable growth and consumption?

It seems to me that price-led demand destruction for non-renewable resources occurs way too late using economic analysis.

We need an analytical tool that creates demand destruction when we are 10% down the road of a peak in production, not 90%.

Please help me understand how economic analysis provides a helpful solution to the problem you pose above.

A fire alarm that only goes off when the building is mostly burned down is not a good fire alarm.

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'I')t seems that everyone is trying to grow faster than trend and in excess of our carrying capacity. Sorry that is human nature and a not a failure of economic analysis.

[Ibon]

There is no dichotomy between human nature and economic systems. Our economic systems have gone through the same scrutiny and fine tuning that our food production, dentistry and health care have to reduce deaths.

Kudzu Ape has proven remarkably resilient in organizing the conversion of the planets diverse biomass over to human biomass along with all the slave plants and animals that reinforce this resiliency.

Our economic systems are not the cause of this, they are a consequence, as is technology and natural resource exploitation, of Kudzu Ape's insatiable appetite toward consumption and expansion.

The moment humans were exposed to the tools (technology and fuel) to expand they did. Economic systems evolved and improved to make this expansion resilient. This is only another trade mark of the Kudzu Ape.

[Ludi]

I think it is our culture (reflected in our economy), and not our "nature" which is the problem. If it were our "nature" then we would have seen all human cultures engage in the same behaviors, which we have not. Many cultures did not engage in these behaviors until they were forced into them by our culture.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '
')
Clearly unsustainable. Not the concept, but the tragedy of the commons and our own short-sightedness. Ignorance is our enemy!

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') think it is our culture (reflected in our economy), and not our "nature" which is the problem. If it were our "nature" then we would have seen all human cultures engage in the same behaviors, which we have not. Many cultures did not engage in these behaviors until they were forced into them by our culture.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GASMON', '[')However, space is the next frontier for our modern day competitors, THE CHINESE. They increasingly have the know how, and currently have (all) the money.

[timbo]

Impractical as it may currently be I get an extremely faint glimmer of hope from concepts like Gross National Happiness http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_national_happiness rather than Gross National Product aka Gross Consumption.

Unfortunately like most of my fellow uber-doomers I think that the solution will be imposed on us by circumstances rather than any sane attempt to move away from rampant consumerism. And that the imposed adjustment is going to be very traumatic.

[Ludi]

http://anthropik.com/thirty/

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', ' ') But to blame this solely on "our" culture is to say that our modern malaise is reducible to the evils of western caucasian european modernism.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')
I will suggest an alternative idea. The human animal is flawed. Religions and morals and even many of the rituals of ancient hunter gatherer cultures are present not as reflections of some older pure garden of eden state of humanity but rather as cultural elements that evolved to contain these selfish rapacious parts of human nature that probably evolved from selective pressures that existed in the savannas of Africa. Although tempered by altruism, compassion and art humans have underneath a base line that has a hyena type rapacious element.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'T')hat's one of the reasons, diminishing resources don't worry me as much as uber doomers. I know what can be accomplished through peer pressure.

[Devin]

In my experience people who are centered and have plenty of supportive/loving relationships don't have such philosophies. If people wish to believe that they are innately and irrevocably flawed, due to this or that variation on Original Sin, they can go right ahead. It doesn't really scare me (what is the fear there? that you will be alone if people don't change their mind?), but I can easily empathize with people who feel that way. I've entertained my share of rather depressing perspectives, and almost all of them have involved getting trapped in philosophical constructs instead of living in the moment.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '[')I can't believe, after YEARS of talking about this, I have to even say this again to you Ibon.

Our culture is not humanity. Civilization is not humanity. It is just one expression of tens of thousands of cultures.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
') Or can the living arrangements and egalitarian non heirarchial cultural attributes that existed with hunter gatherers ever be integrated into civilization as an alternative to dismantling civilization.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')The dismantling of civilization and returning to a Pleistocene existence? Is this possible? Or can the living arrangements and egalitarian non heirarchial cultural attributes that existed with hunter gatherers ever be integrated into civilization as an alternative to dismantling civilization.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Devin', ' ')(what is the fear there? that you will be alone if people don't change their mind?),

[alecifel]

I think the condition is both nature and nurture. Even outside the "modern western" megaloconsumption, every human being seems to be innately obsessed with overcoming scarcity. A lot of animals have this compulsion. Squirrels, for instance. This is probably the result of some ancient event that nearly extincted the species.

There is nothing inherently wrong with wanting to accumulate a store of goods to pass on to your descendants. This didn't become harmful until the advent of market capitalism, which divorced the practical "saving" mentality from any organic context. This "kudzu ape" (what I would call "wildass ape") behavior is all thanks to Adam Smith, the discovery of coal/oil/natural gas, and the very clever ingenuity of millions of people.

It can be saved by developing a new ethic. We need, as a civilized people, to pursue a different kind of growth. Sort of a Zen pursuit, for perfection rather than quantity... reduce population, increase thriftiness, pursuit of a better environment, etc. What drives the object of peoples' ambitions? Whatever a society holds up as an ideal. So change the ideals, change the definitions of "success", and you will change the outcome.

Time sure is getting short, though.

Ludi, cute chick. Mine all feathered out and they're still pretty but I miss my little yellow fluffies.

[Devin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Devin', ' ')(what is the fear there? that you will be alone if people don't change their mind?)