We're in a very difficult situation! Almost 7 billion people, not enough resources, pollution, climate change and God knows what else. The situation we have created during the last few thousand years is the result of our choices. The things we call a "problem" like; Peak Oil, overpopulation, pollution, etc. is nothing more then the consequence of our choices.
If our ancestors, a few thousands years ago, made the "right" choices and learned their children how to make the "right" choices then maybe the current situation could be avoided. We are still able to make those choices, to make the world a truly better place, but it will take many sacrifices we're not ready to make.
Something to think about:
Answer the following questions without using any complicated explanation. Be honest! Answer the questions as if you have to explain it to a child; "Who am i? Why do i exist?"
Choices...we have to make choices as individuals and as collective. We ALWAYS have a choice even if we don't like the consequences of this choice! Sometimes we have a choice without even knowing we have a choice. Not making a choice is also a choice. There is ALWAYS a choice!
I strongly believe every human being knows the difference between "right" and "wrong". To avoid starting a philosophical discussion about the definition of "right & wrong" a good rule to remember is; "treat others as you would like to be treated". You can choose to ignore this little "rule of dumb".
Even a child can understand this simple rule and even a child knows that a lot of suffering can be avoided if everybody follows this basic rule. It's just a matter of making a simple choice.
We still have a choice! We can stop the suffering and we are able to stop the destruction of the environment. But this involves a choice and a lot of sacrifices. If we don't want the extinction of many species, if we don't want more pollution, if we don't want future generations to suffer, if we don't want a living hell right here on earth...we just have to do it! We ALL have to make the choice to STOP DOING...a child would say...STUPID.
Don't get me wrong...we're not going to make the necessary choices! Many people don't even know they have a choice or try to avoid making the necessary choices. Many people don't even want to make a choice. And even if we somehow make the necessary choices to stop damaging the environment, stop fighting and stop caring about profits/power will not make the consequences from earlier choices magically disappear.
We have to deal with a population of almost 7 billion people, not enough resources, pollution and climate change. This is the consequence of earlier choices and we have to deal with it. And the consequences of the choices we make is for future generations to deal with. If we want future generations to live in a better world then we have to make a choice and many sacrifices.
We can twist, bend and manipulate the truth as much as we want, but at the end we're going to suffer anyway. The earth can't support 7 billion people for long. At a certain point in time many people have to die to restore the balance. This is going to happen anyway...we can make it as painful as we want! Our choice!
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We have a choice...
We have a choice...
by kakkerlak » Sat 05 Apr 2008, 10:56:04
As an obsessive perfectionist it is not unusual for me to spend an hour writing and re-writing a single sentence. When abandoning perfection i ask you to judge me on my ideas, not on my words.
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kakkerlak - Peat
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Re: We have a choice...
by kakkerlak » Sat 05 Apr 2008, 10:57:12
How did it come this far?
Peak Oil, pollution, climate change, etc. are NOT the real problems. All those bad things that happen all around the globe every day are nothing more then symptoms from a much greater and more important problem. And this problem, this problem we absolutely have to deal with is us, we humans! We are the problem! Our actions throw everything out of balance! It's the way we threat others and even ourself. We "wise man" are not as wise as our specie's name suggests!
Why do we do all those terrible things? Why do we allow many terrible things to happen? How did it come this far? Where did it go wrong?
Our species is walking around on this planet for a very long time. And only in the last few thousand years are we making it very hard for ourself and other species to exist. Is this because knowledge, agriculture, technology and stuff like that gives us the ability to do bad things? Or is it because we have the ability to do bad things and knowledge, agriculture, technology and stuff like that is nothing more then a tool?
Why do we kill? Why do we steal? Why do we destroy? We certainly don't have to do it if we don't want to. Why? What are we trying to accomplish? Do we want a house for every human being? Then tell me why some people have 10 houses all for them self? Do we want every human to have food and water? Then tell me why some people eat 10 times more then necessary? We want world peace? Then tell me why we kill other people without any good reason? We don't want the destruction of the environment? Then tell me why we chop down all those forests and pollute the land and the sea?
Some cultures don't destroy the environment, have respect for every living creature and if they take something from somewhere they also give something back. A long time ago, somewhere in history, humans didn't go to war and also didn't destroy the environment. Did they lack the ability to kill and destroy? Certainly not!
What's the difference between humans and animals? How did it come this far?
Oblivious it's our brain that makes all the difference. It's our brain that gives us most of our ability's. But that still doesn't explain why we do so many bad things. If we are THAT smart, why do we do so many dumb things? Animals don't do dumb things and animals don't do bad things. Animals don't understand the consequences of their actions, humans do. So, why don't animals do at least the same amount of dumb and bad things as humans do?
It seems, at a certain point in time, we lost something. We lost something and we gained something. We lost something all animals have and we gained something no animal has. We lost our innocence and we gained choice!
Animals can't do evil! When one animal kills another animal or even a human it is not bad or wrong. Animals can't do bad things and they can't do things wrong. Animals just act according to their nature, to their "programming", to their instincts. Animals can't choose or ignore their instincts. Animals don't have anything outside their instincts and have no choice. Because of this animals are in definition innocent, whatever they do! All animals are innocent!
Humans, just like animals, have instincts. In this area humans and animals are exactly the same. But we have something else, something no animal has. We have a choice! We can choose to ignore our instincts! We can choose not to kill when hungry. We can choose not to eat. We can even choose to die. No animal can do this, no animal can ignore a meal and no animal can choose to die.
Choice and only choice makes the difference between being innocent or not innocent. And because we have a choice we automatically loose our innocence! We can only be innocent again if we choose to be innocent. We ALWAYS have a choice!
Because we lost our innocence (something all animals have) we can't be happy. The only time when we are remotely happy is when we're temporarily innocent. Look at a child. A child is, until able to make choices, mostly innocent and happy. Watch children play and smile and you know what i mean. When adult are happy it's only because they are temporarily a child again, it's when they allow them selfs to be innocent. We sometimes call this "joy". Go look around in your neighbourhood. Watch the children play. Do they care about rain? Do you? If it's raining and you have an umbrella then you care. Do dogs care about rain? Do children care if they get dirty? Do you? Do dogs care about dirt?
We lost our innocence and we're desperately searching to get it back. We're cast out of the Garden of Eden, to use a metaphor. Everything we do, everything we build and everything we destroy is nothing more then an attempt to get back what we have lost.
We lost it and we want it back!
The monkeys have it!
What do we have to do? What is the solution?
It's very simple!
If we want the killing to stop then every human has to choose not to kill another human. If we don't want poverty then everybody has to choose not to take more then necessary and give away whatever we don't need. If we don't want the destruction of the environment then everybody has to choose not to destroy it. If we want to make the "right" choices then we have to learn how to make those choices. This is also a choice.
These choices have to be made by all humans, as individuals and as collective. This choice has to be made voluntarily out of our own free will. It can't be forced and laws can't make it happen. And as long as we don't make those choices there will always be unnecessary suffering and pain; the consequence of the choice to not make the necessary choices.
Peak Oil, pollution, climate change, etc. are NOT the real problems. All those bad things that happen all around the globe every day are nothing more then symptoms from a much greater and more important problem. And this problem, this problem we absolutely have to deal with is us, we humans! We are the problem! Our actions throw everything out of balance! It's the way we threat others and even ourself. We "wise man" are not as wise as our specie's name suggests!
Why do we do all those terrible things? Why do we allow many terrible things to happen? How did it come this far? Where did it go wrong?
Our species is walking around on this planet for a very long time. And only in the last few thousand years are we making it very hard for ourself and other species to exist. Is this because knowledge, agriculture, technology and stuff like that gives us the ability to do bad things? Or is it because we have the ability to do bad things and knowledge, agriculture, technology and stuff like that is nothing more then a tool?
Why do we kill? Why do we steal? Why do we destroy? We certainly don't have to do it if we don't want to. Why? What are we trying to accomplish? Do we want a house for every human being? Then tell me why some people have 10 houses all for them self? Do we want every human to have food and water? Then tell me why some people eat 10 times more then necessary? We want world peace? Then tell me why we kill other people without any good reason? We don't want the destruction of the environment? Then tell me why we chop down all those forests and pollute the land and the sea?
Some cultures don't destroy the environment, have respect for every living creature and if they take something from somewhere they also give something back. A long time ago, somewhere in history, humans didn't go to war and also didn't destroy the environment. Did they lack the ability to kill and destroy? Certainly not!
What's the difference between humans and animals? How did it come this far?
Oblivious it's our brain that makes all the difference. It's our brain that gives us most of our ability's. But that still doesn't explain why we do so many bad things. If we are THAT smart, why do we do so many dumb things? Animals don't do dumb things and animals don't do bad things. Animals don't understand the consequences of their actions, humans do. So, why don't animals do at least the same amount of dumb and bad things as humans do?
It seems, at a certain point in time, we lost something. We lost something and we gained something. We lost something all animals have and we gained something no animal has. We lost our innocence and we gained choice!
Animals can't do evil! When one animal kills another animal or even a human it is not bad or wrong. Animals can't do bad things and they can't do things wrong. Animals just act according to their nature, to their "programming", to their instincts. Animals can't choose or ignore their instincts. Animals don't have anything outside their instincts and have no choice. Because of this animals are in definition innocent, whatever they do! All animals are innocent!
Humans, just like animals, have instincts. In this area humans and animals are exactly the same. But we have something else, something no animal has. We have a choice! We can choose to ignore our instincts! We can choose not to kill when hungry. We can choose not to eat. We can even choose to die. No animal can do this, no animal can ignore a meal and no animal can choose to die.
Choice and only choice makes the difference between being innocent or not innocent. And because we have a choice we automatically loose our innocence! We can only be innocent again if we choose to be innocent. We ALWAYS have a choice!
Because we lost our innocence (something all animals have) we can't be happy. The only time when we are remotely happy is when we're temporarily innocent. Look at a child. A child is, until able to make choices, mostly innocent and happy. Watch children play and smile and you know what i mean. When adult are happy it's only because they are temporarily a child again, it's when they allow them selfs to be innocent. We sometimes call this "joy". Go look around in your neighbourhood. Watch the children play. Do they care about rain? Do you? If it's raining and you have an umbrella then you care. Do dogs care about rain? Do children care if they get dirty? Do you? Do dogs care about dirt?
We lost our innocence and we're desperately searching to get it back. We're cast out of the Garden of Eden, to use a metaphor. Everything we do, everything we build and everything we destroy is nothing more then an attempt to get back what we have lost.
We lost it and we want it back!
The monkeys have it!
What do we have to do? What is the solution?
It's very simple!
If we want the killing to stop then every human has to choose not to kill another human. If we don't want poverty then everybody has to choose not to take more then necessary and give away whatever we don't need. If we don't want the destruction of the environment then everybody has to choose not to destroy it. If we want to make the "right" choices then we have to learn how to make those choices. This is also a choice.
These choices have to be made by all humans, as individuals and as collective. This choice has to be made voluntarily out of our own free will. It can't be forced and laws can't make it happen. And as long as we don't make those choices there will always be unnecessary suffering and pain; the consequence of the choice to not make the necessary choices.
As an obsessive perfectionist it is not unusual for me to spend an hour writing and re-writing a single sentence. When abandoning perfection i ask you to judge me on my ideas, not on my words.
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kakkerlak - Peat
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Re: We have a choice...
by BigTex » Sat 05 Apr 2008, 12:40:15
You've loaded one of those old-school 8 gauge elephant guns with a load of birdshot sized hope and fired it in the direction of our problems.
Good start, but you need to clarify your thinking a little on many of the issues you have raised.
The problems you are describing need to be broken down into the following categories:
1. Problems with the values of industrial civilization
2. Problems with humanity not having evolved to function effectively in an industrial civilization (including the ability to make good strategic decisions in that setting)
3. Problems with the size of the human population
4. Problems with humanity's alienation from its original habitat
5. Problems with humanity seeing itself as something other than a highly intelligent and occasionally enlightened animal--in other words, it's fine to transcend, but you have to remember the state from which you are transcending, otherwise you're just a piece of conceited debris floating in the ether.
You may have better luck restating your concerns under the headings above. Your posts are "rambling", and "rambling" is the easiest way to lose the essence of a message.
Ever notice how any time a bad guy writes a letter, manifesto or something like that, the authorities refer to it as "rambling"?
Good start, but you need to clarify your thinking a little on many of the issues you have raised.
The problems you are describing need to be broken down into the following categories:
1. Problems with the values of industrial civilization
2. Problems with humanity not having evolved to function effectively in an industrial civilization (including the ability to make good strategic decisions in that setting)
3. Problems with the size of the human population
4. Problems with humanity's alienation from its original habitat
5. Problems with humanity seeing itself as something other than a highly intelligent and occasionally enlightened animal--in other words, it's fine to transcend, but you have to remember the state from which you are transcending, otherwise you're just a piece of conceited debris floating in the ether.
You may have better luck restating your concerns under the headings above. Your posts are "rambling", and "rambling" is the easiest way to lose the essence of a message.
Ever notice how any time a bad guy writes a letter, manifesto or something like that, the authorities refer to it as "rambling"?
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BigTex - Intermediate Crude
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Re: We have a choice...
by bodigami » Sat 05 Apr 2008, 19:10:28
Is it even possible to implement a solution with our current numbers? I think that the die-off should happen first, as an environmental correction. And there you have the first choices to make: basically this mean either letting people die or killing them directly... it also includes the choice of being fine with our own mortality.
IMO, 7 000 000 000 of people living in our current technological civilization will be the tipping point... from there on there's basically only painful but correct choices to make: prepare to die or let go your soon to be dead friends, family, and so on, and do not kill directly... just let nature be the "judge".
IMO, 7 000 000 000 of people living in our current technological civilization will be the tipping point... from there on there's basically only painful but correct choices to make: prepare to die or let go your soon to be dead friends, family, and so on, and do not kill directly... just let nature be the "judge".
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Re: We have a choice...
by sittinguy » Sat 05 Apr 2008, 23:38:56
AND GIVE AWAY WHATEVER WE DON'T NEED,,,,,,,,,,,,,WHAT WORLD ARE YOU FROM? Give me a break. Its waaaaaaaayyyy to late.
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Re: We have a choice...
by Kaj » Sun 06 Apr 2008, 01:36:47
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t's wayy to late
Nonsense. More than half of the world's energy is squandered unnecessarily.
Its a case of organising the world differently. That's our responsibility. I propose socialism, perhaps there are other options. Whatever, the course mustn't be allowed to continue as it is.
Even if you believe nothing can stop disaster, then, still, actions can mitigate the results.
Roach, the sentiment is totally correct: people have the responsibility to take certain actions. Especially we who know more than most about certain issues.
Try to be a little more cogent in your writing though (I know I sometimes get caught up with feeling when I write, and I always regret writing a post longer than 300 so words).
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')We lost our innocence and we gained choice!
This is at the core of all mystic and religious wisdom.
We have a choice. Its something that too many posters here seem to not want to acknowlege IMO.
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Re: We have a choice...
by bodigami » Sun 06 Apr 2008, 02:24:45
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kaj', '(')...)
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')We lost our innocence and we gained choice!
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')We lost our innocence and we gained choice!
This is at the core of all mystic and religious wisdom.
We have a choice. Its something that too many posters here seem to not want to acknowlege IMO.
I think the issue with peak oil and peak everything aware people is that when we start talking about this to people that are not aware that this is it, the time to act is now... we're seeing as crazy... hope is very difficult to mantain.
...and besides preparing my mind for anything, I still don't know how to act about this knowledge of the limits of our habitat... I'm thinking to stop using wood (just paper, it may be made from branches... I guess), stop eating all meats, probably not have offspring, and so on... but my hope is less when I know that 'everyone should be awake by now, but no one wants to stop the party'. *sigh* most preparations need the collaboration of the worldwide community, which is not there... yet... and now it's "even less, even later" instead of "too little, too late".
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