Plantaget asked
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')eople on the dole in Sweden rarely have children??
What do Swedes do with all their free time when they are on the dole for years, if not indulge in lots of sex and have kids? Do Swedes on welfare sit and watch TV all the time? Or do they watch Bergmann movies and go on long, silent, meditative ski trips in the moonlight?
PeakOil is You
Family that hasn't worked for THREE generations
Re: Family that hasn't worked for THREE generations
by nocar » Thu 27 Mar 2008, 06:59:02
No, the guys I have in mind do not watch Bergman or go cross-country skiing. They go fishing with noisy snow mobiles in winter through April and go moose hunting in the fall. They sure watch television in between, and drink alcohol and tinker with their cars. They are not that popular with girls. If their girlfriends would get pregnant, they are quite likely to have an abortion. The guy has no say in the matter. Their girlfriends want to move to a city as soon as possible instead of getting stuck.
Of course, that is one kind of situation. I can not vouch for every case. Actually, there are all kinds of activity and training programs for people with unemployment benefits.
Despite that fact that the current conservative government before the last election did everything to discredit the non-working people on welfare and unemployment benefits, a multigenerational family tradition of being on welfare was never brought up. There seems to be more concern over the fact that Swedish women now on average do not have their first child until age 28-30. Swedish mothers have a very high employment rate.
nocar
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Re: Family that hasn't worked for THREE generations
by Cloud9 » Thu 27 Mar 2008, 07:33:37
Got to love it a society based on the three "F" s.
F###
Feed
Fight
F###
Feed
Fight
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Re: Family that hasn't worked for THREE generations
by Fredrik » Thu 27 Mar 2008, 07:41:30
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('paimei01', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fredrik', 'I')f the standard of living was the same, why would I bother to be in the productive 3% (or more likely 30%, in a world without fertilizers and pesticides) instead of sitting around home all day? There will have to be some material incentive to activate people. And without a regular day job, a substantial number of people will end up living in a way that is destructive for both themselves and the society as a whole. For the government, employment of frustrated, disillusioned people will be a bigger priority than standard of living itself (as long as the basic needs are met).
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fredrik', 'I')f the standard of living was the same, why would I bother to be in the productive 3% (or more likely 30%, in a world without fertilizers and pesticides) instead of sitting around home all day? There will have to be some material incentive to activate people. And without a regular day job, a substantial number of people will end up living in a way that is destructive for both themselves and the society as a whole. For the government, employment of frustrated, disillusioned people will be a bigger priority than standard of living itself (as long as the basic needs are met).
This shows why the modern society is dead. Besides the people that would work in agriculture, for a period of their life, like serving in the army, the rest would be free to do whatever they want to improve their lives. Build nice homes, build an internet network, and just live
I sure wish that was possible. But taking into account:
- man's innate selfishness and wish to get as much as possible for as little as possible (a few noble exceptions do exist),
- man's innate preference of his family over other families, his tribe over other tribes etc. (again, some noble exceptions exist),
- desperate worldwide energy scarcity and
- resulting chronic food shortages and general societal decay
...I just don't believe that we could make that utopia come true. Constructing and repairing buildings, roads etc. without cheap energy is extremely hard work. Many will certainly refuse to work, but expect to benefit from other's toil in food and energy production, public infrastructure.
Force them to work, and you have totalitarianism.
Accept them not working but deprive them of the fruit of others' work, and you have a non-egalitarian system essentially like capitalism.
Try to implement the voluntary working society without enforcement, and you end up with either of the above or with anarchy (=chaos) which would probably result in some sort of feudalism.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('paimei01', 'B')ut with no money anywhere, so this system of destruction does not appear again.
Sorry, but any society above the most primitive unorganized hunter-gatherer level (with surplus food production) needs some sort of medium of exchange. After the Russian revolution, the Bolsheviks abolished money, but the resulting makeshift barter trade system was such a failure that the ruble was reintroduced quickly.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('paimei01', 'P')eople of the past did this and they were happy - they just lived.
Yes, if you accept to live without real social organization and without the benefits of advanced society. The population would have to crash to a level so low that everyone could be their own master. We shouldn't romanticize the ancient past without a realistic idea of what life was actually like, and how many people would realistically choose to live like that if there was an alternative.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('paimei01', 'T')oday's society takes the natural wish of all people to help their neighbors - their tribe, to prove their worth, and transforms it into death itself : "prove your worth but only for you, others are the enemy ! only you matter ! it feels good when you are above them doesn't it ?"
While the wish to help your tribe is indeed natural, even stronger is the tendency to look after yourself more than your neighbors, and avoid any extra effort if you can have another person to make the effort.
20 years from now, will most working age people work? I hope so, but then it will be because they have some sort of real individual incentive to do it, not because of altruism.
Last edited by Fredrik on Thu 27 Mar 2008, 08:19:46, edited 3 times in total.
"Only scarcity and effort make life worth living."
"A fundamental, devastating error is to set up a political system based on [individual] desires." -Pentti Linkola
"A fundamental, devastating error is to set up a political system based on [individual] desires." -Pentti Linkola
