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Record Diesel engine fuels price thread.

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: Record Diesel engine fuels price thread.

Unread postby joewp » Wed 12 Mar 2008, 23:51:48

I posted this in the gasoline record price thread, but I'll put it here too. This is the largest spread between gas and diesel I've ever seen.
I took this earlier today with my cell phone:
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Re: Record Diesel engine fuels price thread.

Unread postby DantesPeak » Thu 13 Mar 2008, 00:15:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')iesel: Fuel for Inflation?
Truckers Face Record Pump Prices to Get Goods to Stores
By Steven Mufson
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, March 13, 2008; Page D01

The auto club AAA reported yesterday that both diesel and gasoline prices smashed previous highs. Gasoline rose to a nationwide average of $3.246 a gallon for regular unleaded. Diesel, which has been setting records almost daily for the past three weeks, hit a nationwide average of $3.876 yesterday.

The average price of diesel fuel has been shooting up even faster than that of gasoline, rising more than 50 cents in barely two months. That is not only squeezing profit out of the trucking business but is also driving up the cost of delivering all kinds of goods to American consumers.


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Re: Record Diesel engine fuels price thread.

Unread postby DantesPeak » Thu 13 Mar 2008, 12:34:19

The wholesale price of diesel is moving up rapidly again today, possibly pushed along by the maintenence of an important refinery producing diesel and gasoline.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')xxonMobil on Mar 13 began about two months of planned turnaround maintenance at a fluid catalytic cracking units at its Beaumont, Texas, refinery.

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Re: Record Diesel engine fuels price thread.

Unread postby AirlinePilot » Thu 13 Mar 2008, 13:17:09

Anyone have a handle on what is going on with Diesel inventory? What about Canada and Europe? Seems there is something very serious up with this. Maybe we are not getting the whole picture?

I dont think we have ever seen such spreads with diesel so much higher than regular gasoline.
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Re: Record Diesel engine fuels price thread.

Unread postby Tuike » Thu 13 Mar 2008, 16:58:01

Heating oil future has risen to 311.77

Diesel prices in Finland are almost 1.3 €/l
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Re: Record Diesel engine fuels price thread.

Unread postby Roy » Thu 13 Mar 2008, 17:05:37

$3.89/gallon here today.

Or .66 Euro/liter. Still cheap by European standards I guess.

That's the highest I have ever seen it in this area.
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Re: Record Diesel engine fuels price thread.

Unread postby Tuike » Fri 14 Mar 2008, 11:23:35

Heating oil future 319.57
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Re: Record Diesel engine fuels price thread.

Unread postby DantesPeak » Sat 15 Mar 2008, 12:15:48

Here is a better than average article on the effect soaring diesel prices are having on the trucking industry in the US:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')ruck firms fuming about high gas prices
With 12 years experience running a trucking company, Chad Bowen thought he’d seen it all.

But in the past year, the owner of Bowen Enterprises Inc. in Sparks said he’s witnessed something he’s never seen before.
“For the first time, we’ve actually paid more for fuel than we have for our drivers,” said Bowen, whose company boasts a fleet of 40 flatbed trucks and 25 refrigerated trailers.

As diesel prices accelerate to record levels, U.S. truck operators such as Bowen are fuming about skyrocketing fuel costs. In the past month alone, the cost of diesel jumped from an average price of $3.383 per gallon in February to a new high of $3.938 per gallon Friday, according to AAA’s daily fuel gauge report. The average price of diesel a year ago was $2.744 per gallon.

Truckers in the West are especially affected, given the region’s traditionally higher fuel prices compared to the rest of the nation. California, the top destination for Nevada’s trucks, according to the Bureau of Transportation Statistics, has diesel prices topping $4 per gallon in most metro areas, according to AAA. For Nevada truckers refueling in those places, that makes an already big problem even worse.

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Re: Record Diesel engine fuels price thread.

Unread postby sjn » Sat 15 Mar 2008, 13:00:49

Are we seeing the first chronic shortages to hit the OECD? Diesel consumption has been growing much faster than petrol/gas in recent years and makes up a smaller fraction of refinery output. Gas typically gets more press because it's the most used fuel for American drivers, but it is diesel that really provides the life-blood of the transportation (and agro) economy.
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Re: Record Diesel engine fuels price thread.

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 15 Mar 2008, 13:42:34

Just how hard is it to process Gasoline chemically to make it into Kerosene (Diesel #1) and Fuel Oil (Diesel #2)????

Seems lie if you have a surplus of a fuel it would be in your financial interest to convert some of that surplus into the fuel you are short on.
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Re: Record Diesel engine fuels price thread.

Unread postby DantesPeak » Sat 15 Mar 2008, 13:43:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sjn', 'A')re we seeing the first chronic shortages to hit the OECD? Diesel consumption has been growing much faster than petrol/gas in recent years and makes up a smaller fraction of refinery output. Gas typically gets more press because it's the most used fuel for American drivers, but it is diesel that really provides the life-blood of the transportation (and agro) economy.

Today's situation can technically not be called a shortage in OECD countries, but in non-OECD countries we have widespread reports of shortages in poorer countries. Regular readers here will understand that the effects of PO and product shortages will hit the poorer countries first, as they are least able to afford the high price of oil.

However a bidding war for diesel has already started. After US inventories were drained by an unusual amount of diesel exports to northwest Europe in February and early March, critically low supplies of diesel in the US - accelerated by low refinery utilization - have caused the US in last week to reverse the export flow of diesel back to the US. This can be seen by the dramatic move higher in the price of diesel these last two weeks.

America runs on diesel, and supply shortages would be devastating to the economy.
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Re: Record Diesel engine fuels price thread.

Unread postby Zardoz » Sat 15 Mar 2008, 13:47:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sjn', 'A')re we seeing the first chronic shortages to hit the OECD?

It's starting to look that way, isn't it? We assumed the first shortages would be for gasoline, but we may have a nasty surprise in store for us in the very near future.

If the trucks can't get enough fuel, things are going to go to Hell in a wheelbarrow with astonishing speed.
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Re: Record Diesel engine fuels price thread.

Unread postby wisconsin_cur » Sat 15 Mar 2008, 15:09:14

So I was just thinking about what would be prioritized in the case of a shortage of diesel. Processed and fresh foods. A brief tour of google tells me that many of the food processors are located in the midwest, often in small towns, close to the raw materials but far away from the largest markets (makes sense given that it is easier to ship the frozen pizza than the live hog).

That makes me wonder if it would not be the port cities that would be hurt first. Sure there would still be plenty of Argentinian beef to ship but would we prioritize the plastic imports from china or the textiles from Vietnam?

One question I would have, "At what price would I be able to fill up my VW TDI that I have been patting myself on the back for buying the last three years?
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Re: Record Diesel engine fuels price thread.

Unread postby PeakOiler » Sat 15 Mar 2008, 15:22:49

I was expecting delivery of two 1,550 gal water tanks today and when I called the vendor to ask about the status of the delivery--get this--was told the shipping company in OK was negotiating a new diesel fuel surcharge contract. The new contract would not affect my purchase, but future deliveries will apparently cost a lot more to the vendors in Central Texas. Meanwhile, shipments are on hold...

The water tanks are made in Oklahoma and the vendor I use now is experiencing over a seven week delay.
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Re: Record Diesel engine fuels price thread.

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Sat 15 Mar 2008, 16:32:53

PeakOiler, if you don't mind - what kind of tank is it - galvanized or polyvinyl? My dad up in OK is looking for a galvanized vendor.
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Re: Record Diesel engine fuels price thread.

Unread postby PeakOiler » Sat 15 Mar 2008, 16:59:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', 'P')eakOiler, if you don't mind - what kind of tank is it - galvanized or polyvinyl? My dad up in OK is looking for a galvanized vendor.

Hey EB, The tanks I'm getting are HDPE, (high density polyethylene), currently made from crude oil. Ethylene, however, is also a by-product of rotting tomatoes.

Q: How many tomatoes would it take to manufacture a 1,550 gal HDPE tank? hmmm. Don't forget about the organo-metallic catalysts to make HDPE either, e.g, trimethyl aluminum, or silmilar pyrophoric derivatives.
:)

As far as metal tanks are concerned, you'll have to search the web for those vendors. I have no personal experience with metal tanks. Some links are in the PFTF forum in the Rainwater Collection thread for various vendors of water tanks.
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Re: Record Diesel engine fuels price thread.

Unread postby ki11ercane » Sat 15 Mar 2008, 17:14:48

Diesel prices across Southern Manitoba Canada have risen to $1.23 a litre. There is 3.78541178 litres to a U.S. gallon, so thats $4.66 CAD per U.S. gallon. Converting Canadian dollars into U.S. dollars at 1.0112 exchange rate, that's $4.61 U.S. dollars for a gallon of diesel fuel here today.

That's a 10 cent jump per litre or 37.85 cent per gallon jump since yesterday.

Just waiting for gasoline to follow suit tomorrow.
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Re: Record Diesel engine fuels price thread.

Unread postby DantesPeak » Sun 16 Mar 2008, 10:17:29

Diesel prices at some local stations have jumped 30 cents/gallon in one day - which I think is the most ever in one day for either gasoline or diesel.

Although I missed this the other day, demand for diesel from Chinindia remains extremely strong:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')ndia's IOC may double diesel imports in 2008/09
Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:22am EDT

NEW DELHI, March 10 (Reuters) - State-run Indian Oil Corp (IOC.BO: Quote, Profile, Research) may double its diesel imports to one million tonnes in the next financial year if domestic demand continues to grow strongly, its director of finance said on Monday.

India's diesel consumption grew an annual 10.5 percent during the first 10 months of the fiscal year to end-March and surged nearly 16 in January from the same month a year ago.

India meets 70 percent of its oil needs through imports.


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Re: Record Diesel engine fuels price thread.

Unread postby sjn » Sun 16 Mar 2008, 10:37:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DantesPeak', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sjn', 'A')re we seeing the first chronic shortages to hit the OECD? Diesel consumption has been growing much faster than petrol/gas in recent years and makes up a smaller fraction of refinery output. Gas typically gets more press because it's the most used fuel for American drivers, but it is diesel that really provides the life-blood of the transportation (and agro) economy.
Today's situation can technically not be called a shortage in OECD countries, but in non-OECD countries we have widespread reports of shortages in poorer countries. Regular readers here will understand that the effects of PO and product shortages will hit the poorer countries first, as they are least able to afford the high price of oil.
I slightly disagree. The same process occurs internally within countries too, even in the OECD rising costs force individuals and certain commercial operators out of the market. The "free-market" helps prevent accute outages by rationing by price, but this results in the curtailment of normal economic activities that become no longer economic.$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')owever a bidding war for diesel has already started. After US inventories were drained by an unusual amount of diesel exports to northwest Europe in February and early March, critically low supplies of diesel in the US - accelerated by low refinery utilization - have caused the US in last week to reverse the export flow of diesel back to the US. This can be seen by the dramatic move higher in the price of diesel these last two weeks. America runs on diesel, and supply shortages would be devastating to the economy.
If it is no longer economic to truck goods to WalMart, the empty shelves will be devastating even before there are widespread outages due to the system sputtering as inventries fall below MOL. It all depends on whether prices rise fast enough to keep the system operating, and whether there is the slack to shift the costs to the consumer or else goverment intervention in the form of explict rationing or subsidies to keep the trucks running.
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Re: Record Diesel engine fuels price thread.

Unread postby shortonoil » Sun 16 Mar 2008, 11:01:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sjn', 'I')f it is no longer economic to truck goods to WalMart, the empty shelves will be devastating even before there are widespread outages due to the system sputtering as inventries fall below MOL. It all depends on whether prices rise fast enough to keep the system operating, and whether there is the slack to shift the costs to the consumer or else goverment intervention in the form of explict rationing or subsidies to keep the trucks running

It doesn’t look like government intervention would effective or even possible. The wheels are grinding to a halt on every front. The banking system is in systemic self destruct mode, trucking firms are going out of business by the train load, and the consumer is tanking by the minute. This relationship is not a simple linear X happens because Y happened event. It looks to be more like a Chaos Theory event, where everything falls apart at once.

If that is what happens, there will be no fixing it! I have suspected for quite a while that PO is not compatible with our present economic/financial system.
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