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Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?

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Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?

Unread postby steam_cannon » Sun 09 Mar 2008, 17:36:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JRP3', 'I') think you're over estimating the impact on all fronts, but especially in
pumping fluids. Many pumps use a flexible impeller inside a housing
that counts on sealing to push the fluid. I don't see how breaking that
seal with bumps would help anything.

Flexible impellers might not be improved, unless putting bumps on
the non-sealing flat side improved fluid flow, made water break free
of the surface with less resistance or something.

But propeller pumps are definitely common as are ship propellers. So
there really is a large market of propellers that might be affected.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]propeller pumps

Image

A wide application field:
# Any industrial transfer
# Agriculture draining and irrigation
# Flooding and recycling in pisciculture, ostreiculture and sheel-fish breeding
# Water draining in public works

http://www.chabot-pumps.com/
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Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 09 Mar 2008, 23:49:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'D')oes anyone know, do Humpback whales have Tubercles on their snouts?

Dolphin Tech VS Whale Tech

Image

Those look like Tubercles to me...

However, I also want to add that the main advantage of these bumps
on the flippers anyway, is for evening out stall conditions and
preventing complete stall at steep angles. For windmills this eliminates
shimmy, energy lost to stalls on the blade when the wind changes
direction and causes vibration... I'm not sure the effect this would
have on the head of a missile, but you can see them clearly there on
the head of this humpback whale, along with the dolphin on it's head too... :lol:


Thanx for the pic. From the science page found HERE it seems to me that the tubercles create a specific kind of turbulent flow deflection in the fluid stream that causes a reduction in drag out of proportion from from their size and frequency.

If this proves to be the case then they would serve the same function for the body of the whale OR the fuselage of an object moving through air or water at high speed, either a submarine or an aircraft body for example MIGHT benefit. The fact that Humpbacks have these on their main body mass supports this theory, but it needs to be tested in windtunnels and/or water tanks to see just what benefits if any occur.
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Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?

Unread postby steam_cannon » Mon 10 Mar 2008, 10:49:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'T')he fact that Humpbacks have these on their main body mass
supports this theory, but it needs to be tested in windtunnels and/or
water tanks to see just what benefits if any occur.
The low tech approach would be to test this on a couple pool torpedoes.
Those are diving weights with fins that glide a long way though the water.
Another way to test this would be with arrows as you said or perhaps
what would be easier would be to test this on toy gliders. Just add
on the Tubercles on one glider and an equal amount of weight to
the other glider and test. Most toy stores usually have large foam
gliders that could be modified and balsawood gliders. You could buy
some funky stick on "googly eyes" from a craft store and try sticking
them onto gliders...

I'm thinking of trying something like this on some gliders eventually,
it certainly might be a way to win a balsawood flyer contest. :-D
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Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?

Unread postby WisJim » Mon 10 Mar 2008, 15:02:52

Any ideas on how these "tubercles" are similar to (or not) vortex generators or air tabs or the dimples on golf balls? I know that some cars use dimples similar to those on golf balls, only larger, to improve air flow over the car body, but I have never researched the technology involved.
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Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?

Unread postby steam_cannon » Mon 10 Mar 2008, 17:07:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WisJim', 'A')ny ideas on how these "tubercles" are similar to (or not) vortex
generators or air tabs or the dimples on golf balls? I know that some
cars use dimples similar to those on golf balls, only larger, to improve
air flow over the car body, but I have never researched the technology involved.
I'm thinking the bumps would cause a close turbulent flow similar to
golf balls and possibly have the advantage of breaking up wave
fronts experienced in thick fluids or at high speeds. Or it just may be
like a bulb on a boat, reducing turbulence or pressure differences a
wing encounters over it's length.

A few pictures and links of possibly related things

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Boat with a bulb
http://mathematica.ludibunda.ch/trigonometry12.html
Image

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Golf Ball
http://tinyurl.com/2gfwxm
Image

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shock Wave
http://www.answers.com/topic/shock-wave?cat=technology
Image
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Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 10 Mar 2008, 20:50:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JRP3', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '
')
Like I said somewhere or other, if this works it will revolutionize fluid dynamics for everything we pump or displace. Thematically any aircraft displaces airflow.



I think you're over estimating the impact on all fronts, but especially in pumping fluids. Many pumps use a flexible impeller inside a housing that counts on sealing to push the fluid. I don't see how breaking that seal with bumps would help anything.


I may well be over estimating the impact of this breakthrough, only time will be able to fully answer that.

Could you give a link to the kind of pump you are talking about specifically? I am familier with centerfugal turbines, Axial turbines and piston pumps as well as flexible diaphram pumps that are actually a subset of piston pumps but I am having a hard time picturing the kind of pump you refer to above.

Tubercle technology should improve both centerfugal and axial turbines. I do not think it would improve piston or diaphram pumps but I have not looked into that application at all.
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Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?

Unread postby steam_cannon » Mon 10 Mar 2008, 22:01:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'I') am having a hard time picturing the kind of pump you refer to above.
I think this is what JRP3 might be referring to.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Flexible Impeller Pumps

Flexible impeller pumps are a type of Positive Displacement Pump.
They can pump wine with seeds and skin. They operate at low rpms
with low shear forces and thus do not damage wine.

Image

Image

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

PD20 Flexible Impeller Pump

Inlet diameter available : 50mm (2”)
Outlet diameter available : 50mm (2”)
Maximum capacity @ 1500 rpm: 300 L/m
Maximum pressure : 3 bar

Image

Flexible Impeller Pump
http://www.nuphlo.co.nz/flexible_impeller_pump.cfm
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Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?

Unread postby JRP3 » Mon 10 Mar 2008, 22:03:47

Yeah, that's it. They are often used as self priming pumps, for example in boats.
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Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?

Unread postby yesplease » Mon 10 Mar 2008, 23:44:48

Vortex generators ain't nothin' new. ;) Heck, Mitsubishi even uses 'em on some cars. :)
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Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?

Unread postby steam_cannon » Tue 11 Mar 2008, 00:48:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '[')url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_generator]Vortex generators[/url] ain't nothin' new. ;) Heck, Mitsubishi even uses 'em on some cars. :)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Vortex generators

Image Image

A vortex generator creates a tip vortex which draws energetic,
rapidly-moving air from outside the slow-moving boundary layer into
contact with the aircraft skin. The boundary layer normally thickens
as it moves along the aircraft surface, reducing the effectiveness of
trailing-edge control surfaces; vortex generators can be used to
remedy this problem, among others, by re-energizing the boundary
layer. Vortex generators delay flow separation and aerodynamic
stalling; they improve the effectiveness of control surfaces (e.g
Embraer 170 and Symphony SA-160); and, for swept-wing transonic
designs, they alleviate potential shock-stall problems
(e.g. Harrier, Blackburn Buccaneer, Gloster Javelin).

Many aircraft carry vane vortex generators from time of
manufacture, but there are also after-market suppliers who sell VG
kits to improve the STOL performance of some light aircraft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_generator

Yeah I'd say it falls under the category of vortex generator. But it
does seem a little more wild, building the vortex generators into the
leading edge instead of sticking them onto the wing. It's not a new
concept entirely, but it may be a more efficient application. Also
that article is a good demonstration that vortex generators work
and then probably do have potential for wind power applications...
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Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 11 Mar 2008, 08:33:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JRP3', 'Y')eah, that's it. They are often used as self priming pumps, for example in boats.


Ah ok, those are a kind of centerfugal pumps which have contact between the blades and the housing. I agree for those applications this technology is probably a wash, the vanes undergo a lot of wear forces as is. A non-contact version is designed to last for decades between maintainence rebuilds like they do at the big hydroelectric plants. If you have to replace the pump every 5 years anyhow because one of the vanes breaks off or the set of vanes becomes too worn for solid contact then using Tubercles probably wouldn't do much for your application.
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Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 03 Apr 2008, 08:25:18

For those interested in this topic the new issue of National Geographic has an article on Biomimetics, including wind turbines using whale style tubercles.
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Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?

Unread postby steam_cannon » Thu 03 Apr 2008, 09:24:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'F')or those interested in this topic the new issue of National Geographic
has an article on Biomimetics, including wind turbines using whale style tubercles.
Thanks, good find! :-D

Biomimetics
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/ ... ler-text/1

Whales on page 2 of 8
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/ ... ler-text/2

Summary
http://darwin-is-dead.blogspot.com/2008 ... etful.html
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Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Tue 29 Apr 2008, 13:51:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', '
')The future?
Image


Nah, more like:

Image
"It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."

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Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 29 Apr 2008, 18:39:12

Oh I dunno, at this point I expect the USA taxpayer to be stuck subsidizing airlines for a few years until they cry foul to the Congressmen hard enough.
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Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 04 Oct 2008, 10:06:09

Latest article I could find on this technology HERE.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')or all its merits as an everlasting, carbon-free source of energy, wind has its drawbacks. There are hefty up-front installation costs associated with wind turbines, and these turbines run intermittently and sporadically. Compounding the natural variability of the wind itself is the often-overlooked problem of stall. When particularly strong or slow winds flow over angled blades, the blades can lose lift and stop rotating. This phenomenon is akin to holding your hand out the window of a moving car: Tilt your palm up and you create lift, which pulls your hand skyward. Tilt too aggressively and your hand drops (a type of stalling).

One company believes it has found an answer to these problems by mimicking the fin of the humpback whale. Humpbacks tilt their uniquely scalloped pectoral flippers aggressively for extra lift in the water, turning their immense bodies swiftly to catch fast, elusive prey. The trick is in the tubercles, or bumps, along the flippers, says Frank Fish, president of the company WhalePower. These bumps allow the fins to tilt further without stall by changing the way water flows over them. Fish, who is also a professor of biomechanics at West Chester University in Pennsylvania, says a humpback turning without tubercles would resemble a car slipping on an icy turn: “Instead of being able to make a tight turn, if its flippers stalled the whale would go out of the turn.”

Wind tunnel tests published by Fish and by Duke University fluid dynamics expert Laurens Howle in 2004 showed that adding tubercle-like bumps to model fins pushed back the stall angle by as much as 40 percent. Other researchers have since confirmed that airfoils with bumps stall more gradually, though debate remains over the exact process that makes this happen.
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Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?

Unread postby VMarcHart » Sat 11 Oct 2008, 17:14:21

Cool. Like the dimples in the golf ball?
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Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 11 Oct 2008, 17:18:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('VMarcHart', 'C')ool. Like the dimples in the golf ball?


Same principal, breaking the laminar airflow in a way that increases boundry flow efficiency.
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Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?

Unread postby yesplease » Sat 11 Oct 2008, 18:46:47

Form/pressure drag tends to be way greater than skin drag, even for the most aerodynamic cars around.
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Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 11 Oct 2008, 20:27:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', 'F')orm/pressure drag tends to be way greater than skin drag, even for the most aerodynamic cars around.


You do realize we are talking about propellor/turbine/fan blade's not automobiles right?
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