[evilgenius]

Increasing the sales tax of anything other than necessities to high levels has always proven to be a killer for whatever was taxed. It doesn't work to collect excessive tax from sales tax, people go into the black and gray markets or they stop buying. The industries effected often go under.

I say a combined approach. Lower the income tax on the rich by 2 or 3% and introduce a 1 or 2% national sales tax that is paid at the register. Permamently institute no more than 10% capital gains. Zero capital gains would be best for those with less than say, ten million invested total. Increase fuel taxes by at least .25 per gallon.

If you are going to have capital gains then make exemptions for investing in alt energy. Don't tax the gains of anyone investing in alt energy and such.

Make it harder for the rich to avoid taxes by using loopholes! If they want a structured break in taxes then it will have to come at a price.

[Tyler_JC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'A')nd what happens to all of the special industries that exist only because of tax credits?

[Kingcoal]

I don't know if I would call taxation a subsidy, it's still money going out the door, just a little less money. Eliminate income taxes and those businesses would do even better.

[mgibbons19]

Who said it is the government's job to manipulate MY behavior?

And who said it was ok for them to use MY money to try and influence MY behavior?

[Tyler_JC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mgibbons19', 'W')ho said it is the government's job to manipulate MY behavior?

And who said it was ok for them to use MY money to try and influence MY behavior?

[Mahmoud]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('evilgenius', 'T')he argument surrounding this issue isn't really one of tax but of man's realtionship to society. Are we individuals or members? The individuals seem to come down on the side of not paying much or any tax because why should they pay for the upkeep of others. The members like the idea of anything which makes the rich hold up the rest of the structure. Neither side is wholly correct, but neither enjoys compromise either.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'I')s wind energy a waste? What about hybrid cars? The home insulation business?

Or municipal bonds(those things that let small towns build schools)?

Are charitable donations a bad thing? What about research and development?

Should people be given a break if they have to spend a lot of money on health care or if they want to go to college? Or save money for retirement?

The tax code is a giant ball of subsidies for popular activities.

I happen to like most of the deductions because they support things that I believe deserve support.

[Tyler_JC]

Rich people invest in city bonds in part because they get a big tax break.

If you remove that tax break, people will move their money into the stock market or corporate bond market.

While that might be great for investors, it's lousy for cities and towns.

If you believe that Peak Oil requires an increase in government investment in energy and infrastructure, then it's lousy for society too.

That is, unless you believe that Market Forces alone will generate the best outcome for Peak Oil.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'R')ich people invest in city bonds in part because they get a big tax break.

If you remove that tax break, people will move their money into the stock market or corporate bond market.

While that might be great for investors, it's lousy for cities and towns.

[Tyler_JC]

Here's my problem with that argument (and you know exactly what I'm about to say).

If the best net effect on GDP is a destruction of the ecosystem, was it worth it?

Without government intervention and the creation of taxes on activities with externalities, the entire world looks like a modern Chinese city.

Pollution is paid by everyone but it benefits only a tiny minority.

I believe that the government should tax pollution in order to spread the benefit to everyone and introduce a cost to the polluter.

And I believe my logic is perfectly sound on this one.

The market failure (excessive pollution) is the result of a failure to have a market. It takes government taxes to reintroduce those market mechanisms.

It's the same with gas taxes, cigarette taxes, etc.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'H')ere's my problem with that argument (and you know exactly what I'm about to say).

If the best net effect on GDP is a destruction of the ecosystem, was it worth it?

[Kingcoal]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'H')ere's my problem with that argument (and you know exactly what I'm about to say).

If the best net effect on GDP is a destruction of the ecosystem, was it worth it?

Without government intervention and the creation of taxes on activities with externalities, the entire world looks like a modern Chinese city.

Pollution is paid by everyone but it benefits only a tiny minority.

I believe that the government should tax pollution in order to spread the benefit to everyone and introduce a cost to the polluter.

And I believe my logic is perfectly sound on this one.

The market failure (excessive pollution) is the result of a failure to have a market. It takes government taxes to reintroduce those market mechanisms.

It's the same with gas taxes, cigarette taxes, etc.

[Dry]

you buy an item or service at a mom and pop place and pay the 23 percent tax on it. will they pass that money on to the government? Maybe one in four times. Biz would make a killing.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dry', 'y')ou buy an item or service at a mom and pop place and pay the 23 percent tax on it. will they pass that money on to the government? Maybe one in four times. Biz would make a killing.

[Lanthanide]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Denny', 'E')ven if he did not have the tools, he could have spent about $6 at a dollar store and picked up what he needed. He just was not motivated. Maybe if he had to pay $80 for a new VCR he would be. I think too many people are lazy these days, they'd rather relax or socialize than get down to work.

[pup55]

Last year, my tax form was about 35 pages. It took me several days, even with TurboTax, to figure it all out, and there is still a lot of question on some of it. Every year, tax experts are given sample returns, and there are big differences in the eventual amount that they come up with as the hypothetical tax. Even the IRS phone assistance operators frequently come up with the wrong answers.

The tax system has become a way to modify behavior, instead of a way to raise money to pay for government services. Also, it is a way to subsidize "small business", whoever that is, by making a lot of their normal living expenses, such as home offices, "deductible". In addition to real estate, the tax system subsidizes all sorts of activities, including restaurants, air travel, NFL skyboxes, and a whole array of other stuff that most people do not think about. Probably most important are "campaign contributions" which tend to keep the whole thing moving.

I can assure you that there is a giant underground economy right now, that does not show up on a single tax form.

The last so-called attempt at "reforming" the tax system in the 80's resulted in roughly doubling the physical size of the tax code, making the system much more regressive, and was a boon to tax accountants and lawyers.

Also, this idiotic system of paycheck deductions and filing a return to get the refund is completely stacked against the taxpayer.

There will no doubt be another attempt at "tax reform", but until there is an absolute uprising by the public, it will no doubt make it worse.

[Tyler_JC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pup55', 'L')ast year, my tax form was about 35 pages. It took me several days, even with TurboTax, to figure it all out, and there is still a lot of question on some of it. Every year, tax experts are given sample returns, and there are big differences in the eventual amount that they come up with as the hypothetical tax. Even the IRS phone assistance operators frequently come up with the wrong answers.

The tax system has become a way to modify behavior, instead of a way to raise money to pay for government services. Also, it is a way to subsidize "small business", whoever that is, by making a lot of their normal living expenses, such as home offices, "deductible". In addition to real estate, the tax system subsidizes all sorts of activities, including restaurants, air travel, NFL skyboxes, and a whole array of other stuff that most people do not think about. Probably most important are "campaign contributions" which tend to keep the whole thing moving.

I can assure you that there is a giant underground economy right now, that does not show up on a single tax form.

The last so-called attempt at "reforming" the tax system in the 80's resulted in roughly doubling the physical size of the tax code, making the system much more regressive, and was a boon to tax accountants and lawyers.

Also, this idiotic system of paycheck deductions and filing a return to get the refund is completely stacked against the taxpayer.

There will no doubt be another attempt at "tax reform", but until there is an absolute uprising by the public, it will no doubt make it worse.

[pup55]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'o')nly allowed to deduct that portion of your home which is actually an office.

[BigTex]

A federal sales tax as a replacement for the income tax and the IRS will NEVER HAPPEN.

I am a tax lawyer and any time a politician talks about something like Huckabee is talking about, it's strictly code for "my campaign is in trouble and I have to do something dramatic."

If we went to a federal sales tax tomorrow, the tax system would get far MORE COMPLICATED because of the difficulty of unwinding the countless long term tax strategies that are tied to the current system--depreciation of business property, executive compensation and employer sponsored health coverage, to name a few.

People have no idea how many dollars are tied up in past promises regarding tax benefits for certain activities. For example, are you ready for your house payment to go up (no more mortgage interest deduction) and your retirement account to become dramatically smaller (because you can't put money in pre-tax)?

It's an interesting idea, and if we were starting from scratch it might make sense, but simplifying any system once it becomes very complex is VERY HARD, in part because there are few entrenched political interests that would benefit from such a change.

If you are interested in how tax reform really works, and how difficult it is, read "Showdown at Gucci Gulch" about the 1986 tax reform legislation. That was the last time we really cleaned house regarding our tax policy and the 1986 changes were very modest when compared to going to a federal sales tax.

To put it in PO-speak, a federal sales tax (and probably a flat tax as well), is kind of like the abiotic oil theory.