[FoolYap]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'T')he thing to get rid of is the powered lawn mower, which can be replaced by a push model easily.

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', '.')
Sorry, Nocar, doesn't work, etc. etc.

[nocar]

gg3,

I figured this thread was about individually (or household-) owned snowblowers, not snow removal by ciities and communities. It seems to me that home owners usually need their snowblower to get their car out, not for any other reason. If you do not have a car, all you need to shovel is narrow foot path.

Snowblowers are one more thing that makes car ownership stimulating more and more matter and energy use.

Snow and slippery ice is an extra problem when getting around for people who are not in shape - I agree. But I do not think that an individually owned snowblower for one's driveway is the best solution very often - unless you rely on car mobility anyway.

nocar

[Mahmoud]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', '.')Shoveling snow is a major cause of fatal heart attacks in the winter. Even for people who are in good shape.

[gg3]

.

Re. FoolYap: Of course get rid of the lawn! Consider this:

A private homeowners' association, having a bizarre form of legal dominion over homes that are on public rights-of-way, can force every household to grow and harvest weekly an ornamental crop that requires large inputs of water and energy. That's f---ing insane.

Yes, get rid of lawns! However for those who must have them for whatever reason, use a push mower. There is never an excuse to have a lawn big enough that it requires a riding tractor mower unless you conduct team sports in your yard that require a playing field (as in, no one does that anyway but we'll make the exception if a case comes up!).

--

Re. TWilliam: The species survived since forever-ago without a lot of things including the knowledge that washing one's hands after wiping one's bottom is a good idea before eating a meal. And the species survived times when most of its members were covered with lice and even fleas. So? The species could survive a nuclear war too; all it takes is one viable breeding colony.

The point is to reduce preventable deaths and preventable births in equal number, thereby resulting in longer lifespan and higher quality of life.

Or if not, I'll believe you when you stop bathing.

Though, I agree about dumping the useless eaters. Let's see, how many people here work at jobs that don't produce tangible goods or essential services?

--

Hi Nocar: You'll be pleased that a close friend of mine who is an eco-industrial genius has ditched his gas powered vehicle and is building himself a 3-wheel electric motorcycle.

Anyway. Narrow path? No, wide enough for a wheelchair or a stretcher with a medic on each side. That should also be sufficient for firefighters with hoses.

Looks like you missed my point about shoveling snow and heart attacks. I'll believe you when you wash all your clothes by hand, which is merely inconvenient and a much less strenuous activity than shoveling heavy wet snow. Motors are legitmate where manual effort would be excessive or hazardous.

Snow blowers don't stimulate car ownership. Ever been to New York City? Shopkeepers hire people with snow blowers to go down an entire block and clear snow from the sidewalk. Few people in NYC own private cars. QED...

Individual snow blowers are probably excessive in most places, where one machine is sufficient for a neighborhood. However, as with any other tools or equipment, it needs to be under the control and responsibility of one or two people who will use and maintain it properly so as to minimize the need for repairs (wasted material & energy due to carelessness).

Humans are going to have to learn to take care of their tools because eventually the cost of repair parts or replacements will go through the roof.

--

Re. Mahmoud: Good point about taking time & dawdling. Speed kills. People rush too much, almost all of which is dictated one way or another by money. We have to stop letting money dictate every detail of our lives. Envision a primitive culture that keeps pet reptiles and asks them (the reptiles) for permission for anything they (the humans) want to do. Reptiles know nothing of mammalian ways except to prey on rodents. Now substitute dollars for the reptiles. Bingo!

Good point about taking the bus when it snows. Which makes it feasible to take the bus at other times as well. In some parts of Europe it used to be the case that buses were also equipped with plows so they could clear their own path as they went on their routes. In the US, refuse trucks are often equipped with plows but seldom do both duties at the same time for logistical reasons.

Municipal engineering in the post-petroleum age is going to be interesting.....

[MarkJames]

People without cars still snowblow their driveways so they have access to side/rear entrances, basement access hatches/doors, garages, storage sheds, electric meters, fuel oil/kerosene fill pipes, propane tanks etc. They also clear the driveways so that guests, service people, health care workers and delivery people have a place to park during winter parking bans and snow emergencies.

Some of our fuel and heating customers don't drive, so they don't clear their driveways. Makes it tough to do service, or deliver fuel when there's nowhere to park, or when you have to climb over a huge scraper bank and drag over a 100 feet of hose through deep snow.

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'T')he species survived since forever-ago without a lot of things including the knowledge that washing one's hands after wiping one's bottom is a good idea before eating a meal.

[nocar]

It is interesting that even on this board, people react strongly whenever the problematic wastefulness of the car traffic system is pointed out.

Other things being equal, if you do not need to clear your driveway for your car, you need to remove less snow. Nine out of ten times I see a snowblower in action, here in my wealthy Stockholm suburb, it is the car driveway they are clearing. For the other places you need to reach in your yard, like your trash can, you do not need such a wide clearance. - If you clear your driveway for guests to park, as MarkJames says, you still do it because of car-ownership, except for other people's cars.

MarkJames, I can sympathize with your being inconvenienced by non-car-owner not clearing their driveway. But how often do you have to deliver heating fuel in a winter? When we depended on oilheating, we usually only needed one filling each winter (the tank held 3 cubic meters) And the tank was filled more or less from the footpath anyway. Seems like the set-up you are describing did not take a winter snow-cover into account when it was designed.

The car traffic system, compared to bus-, or even more a railroad-, traffic system, demands much more surface area for road space and parking. I did not say that snowblowers encourage car-ownership, I said car-ownership (basic to the whole car traffic system) encourages ownership of snowblowers.

If we look up from individual houses and their yards and look at the whole traffic system, obviously a four-lane road needs more snow-removal than a two-lane road, and more or bigger snowmoving equipment. Bigger roads and longer distances traveled means more energy use for snow removal.

There are so many things that makes the car-traffic system an energy hog. In a PO scenario, it will have to shrink. Hopefully though, we can retain some cars for people who have serious trouble walking. If the car traffic system shrank to the point that most cars only transported people needing wheelchairs, I would not complain about all the cars.

nocar

[MarkJames]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nocar', 'M')arkJames, I can sympathize with your being inconvenienced by non-car-owner not clearing their driveway. But how often do you have to deliver heating fuel in a winter?

[mos6507]

My dad has a 2-stroke snow blower that NEVER starts each year. He has to take it in for service. Total waste of time.

People are fat slobs these days. Shoveling would not be a bad thing for them to do as the motions are pretty similar to what you'd do on an exercise machine.

I think people throw out their back becuase they try to lift too much snow with each heave. You have to break it down into chunks, especially when the snow is wet (which makes it a lot heavier).

If you're old or infirm, the classic (and apparently forgotten) solution (other than moving to Florida) is to pay for your neighbor's kids to do it. I remember doing my share of that growing up. But since people live in their own isolated bubbles, that's not considered an option anymore.

[efarmer]

In this area, the rare big snow event drives many to go the the big box store and get a snow blower. Once purchased, it gets trotted out for the "big one" and a few more light dustings where it does not help much. It then lives in the shed or garage and gets varnished up with aged fuel until it won't run. Next it gets rolled out for a warm season yard sale and is passed over there because it won't start and of course it is summer at that time. A very similar process is common with gasoline ac power units. There is a hierarchy with gas powered gadgets among suburban men that is not to be disrespected or belittled.

1. The push lawnmower, the least common denominator to get you
into the game. If you use an electric lawnmower you may forfeit
any neighborhood respect for your other gasoline powered stuff.
If a man must use an electric lawnmower he should do so only
at dusk or dawn.

2. The riding mower, if you have the yard for it. Around here if it
takes you more than 12 minutes to cut your yard with a push
mower, you are on the cusp of riding mower ownership.
If you have the riding mower and the little trailer that can
be towed behind it, the trailer is still shiny as new with dry
rotted tires and in the garage when the motor wears out on the
mower itself.

3. The gasoline powered leaf blower; a man has to have a big
blower hanging off of him, and those guys with the battery
or extension cord electric blowers all know that the gasoline
blower man is the well endowed blower toter in the 'hood.
They often will not get their little blowers out while his mighty
blower is on display. They nervously monitor their wife if she
is outside, to make sure she isn't fixated on the other guy's
awesome blower.

4. The next tier is reached in response to the big storm. If it is
a snowblower you start it and wait until as many people come
out as possible, and you do your yard and sidewalk and the
go around and hit several select neighbors with a "just this
time special" snow blowing to really rub it in. Then you put the
thing in the garage and often this is the end of the story for
good. If it is a ac power unit, you take it out of the box and
put it on the front porch so everyone knows you have it that is
out of power as well. After the first use, having enjoyed the
"victory" run already, it is put in the back yard if it will start
and is needed. If the power failure is during summer, you
attempt to run your central air conditioning from it at least
twice, just to make sure the book that came with it was not
lying or written for safety geeks.

5. Then there is don't ask / don't tell. This is when the other
guys in the neighborhood are over for a barbecue and you leave
the garage door open or lawn shed open with all your gasoline
powered prowess on display. At such events, it is taboo to ask
a man if any or all of it still runs or is useful and it is also taboo
for the owner to volunteer this information. The proper thing
to do is to ask how much something costs, listen attentively,
and then to emit a "phew" or a long whistle.

This is yet another intricate and rich facet of our culture that is
being threatened by the onset of petroleum decline. If we have
to go electric, can we figure out a way to get back the throaty
growls of power that add richness and pride to our lives?


P.S. I know there are many of you who really need these devices
on a regular basis. I feel sorry for you, because there is probably
not a lot of people around to see your gasoline powered stuff,
and also because your stuff is probably all beat up and worn.

[TWilliam]

Hey efarmer you forgot one. The big, bright-orange Husqvarna chainsaw (18 - 20-inch minimum bar length) bought for taking down that one annoying 8-inch diameter tree in the back yard that drips sap on the stainless steel barbeque grill. And of course proper power prowess etiquette requires the job be commenced at 8AM Saturday morning so that everyone in the neighborhood may awaken with a deep sense of respect for your achievement of elite status amongst the lawn jockey set. After all, a chainsaw is a far more subtle and complex piece of machinery than a mere riding mower or snowblower, and it's important to signal one's elevation to that rarefied rank of Yard-Master.

After the annoying tree is removed, the big, bright-orange Husqvarna is duly retired to it's hallowed place beneath the garage workbench, from whence it may on very rare occasion be brought forth for a brief sojourn into a neighbor's yard to help with removal of his annoying 8-inch diameter tree that drips sap onto the stainless steel barbeque (at 8AM Saturday morning of course, in respectful remembrance of the Yard-Master's status). Of course, it is never to be lent for such purpose, as only a genuine Yard-Master has the requisite acumen for operating such a subtle and complex piece of machinery.

[efarmer]

TWilliam,
In my spiritual belief system, I am forbidden from saying the sacred
name of H*******a, the Orange One, either aloud or in writing.
But you speak the truth, and it is sweet to my ears and warms my
heart. By the goodness and assistance of H*******a, the Orange
One, may your manliness be extolled widely, and your grill be free of
sap and affliction from any profane woody mischief.

[Blacksmith]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', '.')
There are electric snow blowers, cost is about $250 for a decent one that'll clear up to 8 - 12" accumulations.

[burnfromwithin]

Personally, I'm not buying a snowblower. I'm 22, I live in an urban environment and the only surface I have to shovel is a small parking slab, a small walkway, and a sidewalk. In addition, I enjoy the physical labor of shoveling snow. When my boss suggested I buy a snowblower, I looked at her as if she was crazy! Even if the snowblower cost just as much as a shovel, I think I'd buy the shovel.

But I'm certain that for some people's situation, having a snowblower is almost a 'must'.