[katkinkate]

I can't remember where I read it, but I recently read a news report (I think) about the tide of illegal immigrants turning. You only have to wait a little longer for the American economy to go further into the doldrums and the dollar to drop a little further and the illegal immigration problem will fix itself as they all take themselves home.

[gg3]

Nicholai, some would argue it's simply the natural response to steal when they want something. Some fifty-year-old men would argue that it's "simply the natural response" when they get aroused by looking at your sixteen-year-old daughter, and it's "simply the natural response" for them to do something about that.

Is that what you want? Oh, you'll shoot the scruffy young guy who steals from your store, and the dirty old man who grabs at your daughter? Really? And what if they have a bigger gun than you have? What if they ambush you and shoot you first? Who's your shopkeeper gonna' call? Ghostbusters? Who's your daughter gonna' call?

Yeah, sure, let's go back to the barbarian life. If you really mean it, you can start by turning off your electricity and disconnecting your plumbing.

---

Re. racial & ethnic tribalism:

Where you been for the past 225 or so years?

America is the first tribe in the history of the world that was founded not on race or ethnicity but on an idea.

We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal, and are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, among them the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Membership in the tribe of Americans depends not on where your ancestors came from, but on holding those self-evident truths in your heart. And while the vote may originally have been restricted to white male property owners, over time it becames clear that it, like all of the other rights ennumerated in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, must necessarily accrue equally to every citizen.

We were the first nation on Earth that was founded on an idea, and on an ideal. We have at times failed our ideals miserably and we are doing so at present, but such is the human condition, and so also is the human condition to seek to do better each time around.

Whites who believe that being white counts for more than being American, are no better than blacks who believe that being black counts for more than being American. Each side, the racial nationalists regardless of their race, is committing the same error and the same civic sin.

If it's ethnic nationalism you want, there are numerous places to find it: in the middle east, in the various "-stans", in places in Europe where the term "cleansing" was stolen from its original use for "waste disposal" and applied to racial purity, or in the homeland of any of the ethnicities that make up your own ancestry.

But if you're like most Americans, you're a mongrel, whose genes descended from the four corners of the Earth. Perhaps that gives you a wider choice of ethnic homelands to which to return.

But as for me, I'm happy to be a mongrel, and I'm grateful to be a citizen in a land where the ideas I holds in my mind, and the ideals I hold in my heart, are what define my nationality.

One nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

[I_Like_Plants]

Yep if you'll put the Kool-Ade down and read the Founding Fathers, you'll find it was for white "yeomen" like themselves. They considered the white landowning male to be the backbone of a free society. This comes out of English history. Women not being able to vote was the norm for Western societies, those few who had a vote, so of course women didn't get the vote.

Lincoln was like any good American just racist as hell, he wanted to free the blacks to save the US gov't the expense of having to buy them from their owners to send them back. It was a brilliant idea, freeing them, because then they'd not have to be bought to be put on shipped and gotten rid of, and of course the idea was that they could also work, earn, and essentially "self-deport" as we're trying to get the hispanics to do now.

Of course we all know what happened. Well-meaning fool Booth shoot lincoln, and Lincoln's actions regarding the blacks never happened. Lincoln was a damned determined guy, and I like to think he'd have arranged a workable plan to deport all blacks and got it done.

Remember that Lincoln was one hell of an Indian fighter too. As far as I know, all the Founders were enthusiastic in their speech and actions, fighting/evicting Indians, in their desire to make the US an all-white nation.

Now, *I'm* part Indian. Here it's winter and I've still got a good tan, out in SoCal they've got to work pretty hard to get my golden color. Until I spent a LOT of time in the sun and I start getting funny looks lol. I'm not a pure-pure white. But my own color is not going to blind me to the truth.

[Kingcoal]

The strange thing is that the Constitution doesn't touch on immigration. In fact, up until the turn of the last century, there really weren’t any “illegal” immigrants. Federal immigration policy began in an effort to try to limit the "undesirable" immigrants, notably Irish and Italians. Kill them all, I say. Drag all those greasy Italians and drunken Irishmen to the firing line! The point I'm trying to make is that the term "illegal immigrant" really has little legal basis when put through the comb of the Constitution. The term "criminal immigrant" which refers to a recent immigrant who engages in criminal activity, is valid. Before immigration policy, all you had to do was get off the boat and establish a residency and a legal method of supporting yourself and family within three years and you could apply for citizenship in the State you resided in. There was no requirement for federal citizenship. The Constitution applies to all people physically residing inside the borders of the USA, or at least that was the original intent. Take a look at the film, "The Gangs of New York" for some background in this. Overall, I think America is strengthened by good people who come here to work, regardless of ethnic background. Like gg3 says, just enforce the existing laws that we all live by. People who come here to engage in illegal activity need to be dealt with in the same way that natural born people are, with the exception that natural born people can’t be deported. Anyone who wants to come here to work and obey the law is welcome. It's what this country is all about.

If you think that immigrants are taking your jobs, then maybe you should quit being a slacker. I don’t understand how anyone, born is this land of opportunity can’t make it past a menial job unless they are mentally or physically compromised. Natural born Americans have a huge amount of opportunities and advantages compared to most of the rest of the world. If you blow your opportunities, that isn’t the fault of immigrants.