[Lumpy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'I') do think there are things we can do to improve our chances and those of our communities and tribes, even though I'm a fast crash pessimist. I read your quote above in that light, which I think is how you intended it, not some "the secret" magical thinking BS. Basically despair makes us die.

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Phebagirl', 'G')ood day from Pheba, from the farm:
I tend to look at this subject from a different viewpoint. I am a people watcher. I often wish I had a degree in sociology. But then I would be dumbed down and would not be a people watcher.
My theory for what it is worth: I believe that people who do not accept the doomer mindset really do know how bad things are. I believe the frenetic shopping and mad consumption are all symptoms of a deep underlying, gut wrenching fear. I believe that people already know that we are on a runaway train. A person would have to be totally brain dead not to subconsciously absorb the signs that are all around us.
I am much happier knowing what is going on. I would rather face a bleak future head on than go around living with some nameless nagging fear that I just could not put my finger on.

[Lumpy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('uNkNowN ElEmEnt', 'S')o what if society crashes and we all wind up living like hobbits in earth houses, foraging all day for our food. I think I like that more than having to put up with this construct. I won't even start going on about my personal oppinions of what this life is doing to us, but I can't see that once the adjustment is made that living a much reduced life would be that much worse for us.

[Lumpy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '
')Doesn't have to be that way.

Look at Jack LaLanne. Homeboy's 90 something years old and probably healthier in a number of ways than I am.

The point is, almost anything that's going to help you live longer is also going to help you become healthier, both in the present AND the future.

There are plenty of 70+'s NOT in the nursing home and who never will be. Chances are most of them eat frugally, do some excersise, aren't full of hate & bitterness and most importantly feel useful & loved by those around them.

[hubbertspeak7777777]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lumpy', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '
')Doesn't have to be that way.

Look at Jack LaLanne. Homeboy's 90 something years old and probably healthier in a number of ways than I am.

The point is, almost anything that's going to help you live longer is also going to help you become healthier, both in the present AND the future.

There are plenty of 70+'s NOT in the nursing home and who never will be. Chances are most of them eat frugally, do some excersise, aren't full of hate & bitterness and most importantly feel useful & loved by those around them.

[Nano]

If you have a positive outlook on life, you will care better for yourself and your surroundings. If you a depressed, then you will neglect yourself and your surroundings. Seems pretty clear which one is better.

I'm a doomer, but that causes me no trouble. It's my current appraisal of the situation, and is subject to change as time moves on. It's not a state of mind.

The alienation is the thing that bugs me. I have difficulty sometimes relating to people who don't insist on trying to understand what the future might *actually* bring, instead of assuming status quo and hoping for the best. That causes me much more psychological pain then any squeemishness about doom.

Furthermore, I hate that I am for economic reasons tied to the current system which is causing problems and is as unsustainable as it is immutable, at core. Phebagirl has it right, but IMO the fear she talks about is this troubling worry in most people that they might not be a part of the problem per se, but they are certainly not part of the solution either.

I'd like my work to benefit humanity and the planet in some way, but there is just no money in that. If you can think of a new way people can waste energy and resources in a pleasant way, then that is probably a good idea for a new business. o the contrary: if you think of a way for people to use less energy and resources (for a price), prepare to go bankrupt pretty quickly. To earn some $$$ in this world you have to dance with the monster, which is capitalism and consumerism. The alternative is (voluntary) poverty.

[Lumpy]

You know, maybe part of the problem in comumication here is what the term "doomer" means to each of us.

I stated in an earlier post what I thought it meant. Maybe some of you could enlighten me as to what it means to you.

Would appreciate that.

[Heineken]

Sorry if I offended, Lumpy. I didn't pay proper attention to your newbie status here---normally I'm gentler and more welcoming.

This is somewhat of a soapbox issue for me, which is what provoked my outburst.

I think there are many people twitching around today who are already close to dead. Sitting in their cars in the creeping traffic jams, on the way to their office morgues or home to the mortgage. Marooned on a thousand other neon-lit moons I could list.

A discussion of length of life is meaningless without simultaneous consideration of quality of life. I think this society is too obsessed with living longer, at the expense of more important considerations, such as exactly how those lives are being spent. The ultimate expression of this nonsense is seen the medical professions, which too often jump through hoops to keep terminally ill people alive for a few days longer.

The opportunities for truly meaningful lives for average people are being pinched off at every turn. We should be talking more about that and less about making it to 100.

Also, I think I raised a significant point about difficulties in the future that are likely to shorten lifespans no matter how "positive" our attitudes are. Unless we pay more attention to those problems, we're unlikely ever to be in a position, as individuals, to know if your theory is true.

Many lives around the world are shortened by disease, war, and starvation. What about them? Doesn't it seem silly trying to live to 100 when a child in Niger is dying of typhoid complicated by malnutrition? What has happened to our priorities?

The point has been made elsewhere that too much optimism may lead to complacency over the issues that are threatening this planet and its passengers. If we feel good about ourselves and the world, we may be less likely to feel any urgency about taking the drastic measures that are needed to head off disaster.

I carefully re-read the article you linked and the linked item at the bottom of the article. I saw no actual discussion of the evidence linking a positive attitude to a longer life. It's possible that it was a finding of the study, but we don't know how strong the statistical association was. It would take many other well-designed studies to even begin to confirm this finding.

Fairly recently there was a study result suggesting that a positive attitude did not increase survival time in breast cancer victims. I don't have the link at hand. So, there may be conflicting evidence as well.

Bottom line: Doomers are not necessarily unhappy, negative people. For example, I'm a hard-core doomer who lives each day to the fullest and does what he can for the environment. I own 75 acres of land and I manage that land for a "green" future, even though I believe, based on all I have learned, that that future is likely to be "brown."

Perhaps I have learned more than is healthy for me. But facts are facts, and I prefer to face them head-on.

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lumpy', 'Y')ou know, maybe part of the problem in comumication here is what the term "doomer" means to each of us.

I stated in an earlier post what I thought it meant. Maybe some of you could enlighten me as to what it means to you.

Would appreciate that.

[uNkNowN ElEmEnt]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nano', 'I')f you have a positive outlook on life, you will care better for yourself and your surroundings. If you a depressed, then you will neglect yourself and your surroundings. Seems pretty clear which one is better.

[Heineken]

[quote="uNkNowN ElEmEnt]Besides if a good positive attitude makes you live longer, why aren't all the old people running around happy?[/quote]

Excellent point. I have observed this many times.

I come from a branch of Pennsylvania Dutch-Germans, easily among the gloomiest people on Earth. Most of her adult life, my paternal grandmother was always talking about death, particularly her own impending one. She lived to be 96. Her husband was an antisocial crabapple; I think I saw him smile exactly once. He lived to be 94. Both were traumatized by the Depression, which left them depressed themselves, and negative in outlook, for the rest of their lives.

My own parents have already survived into their early 80s despite being extremely negative, antisocial, psychologically scarred people. My dad has had PTSD, a disease process that is a veritable fount of negativity and antisociality, since being traumatized by his experiences as a soldier during WWII. My mother was severely abused as a child and adolescent and has spent a lifetime feeling bitter and nursing her wounds.

These are only anecdotes, but similar ones abound!

I think that longevity is mostly a matter of genetics, and a heap of evidence supports that.
No one argues that a positive outlook on life FEELS better. It's definitely the way to go. But whether it produces per se a significant increase in lifespan seems doubtful to me.

Even regular physical exercise extends the average lifespan by only 2 years or so.

[Lumpy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'A') doomer is someone who believes that the future will be darker than today. How deep the darkness goes varies from doomer to doomer. Most believe there will be a large and perhaps rapid drop in the human population that will bring it down to the level of the natural carrying capacity (natural carrying capacity having been artificially and temporarily expanded by the cheap energy liberated by burning fossil fuels). Most also believe that a range of economic and environmental disasters are fairly imminent. Very few---probably none---believe that all life will disappear from Earth. We aren't crackpots, although that is the common public perception.

Doomers believe either (1) that no matter what we do today, we cannot avoid these calamities or (2) that we could avoid these calamities if we acted now, but that we aren't going to act now or ever, so the calamities are coming anyway.

A doomer's beliefs are usually based on evidence, not personality flaws.

[Heineken]

Some doomers do react personally in a negative way (the most extreme example of such a reaction being suicide, which I'm sure has happened, alas). Others do everything they can to prepare for a difficult future (even while suspecting that such preparations may be futile). And do what they can, locally, to try to ameliorate the damage our species is wreaking.

Anyway, I think you've come to the right place, Lumpy. We've had many, many threads that examine from every possible angle the issues you're raising here. Explore! And welcome to PO.com. Sorry again if you and I got off on the wrong foot. My fault entirely.

[efarmer]

When I veer Doomer, time crawls, when I drift toward the Tickletush opposite pole, time screams past. I think perceived time is about equal for both roles, but the Tickletush gets more calendar time and is most probably blissfully unaware anyhow.

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'E')xcellent point. I have observed this many times.

I come from a branch of Pennsylvania Dutch-Germans, easily among the gloomiest people on Earth. Most of her adult life, my paternal grandmother was always talking about death, particularly her own impending one. She lived to be 96. Her husband was an antisocial crabapple; I think I saw him smile exactly once. He lived to be 94. Both were traumatized by the Depression, which left them depressed themselves, and negative in outlook, for the rest of their lives.

My own parents have already survived into their early 80s despite being extremely negative, antisocial, psychologically scarred people. My dad has had PTSD, a disease process that is a veritable fount of negativity and antisociality, since being traumatized by his experiences as a soldier during WWII. My mother was severely abused as a child and adolescent and has spent a lifetime feeling bitter and nursing her wounds.

These are only anecdotes, but similar ones abound!

I think that longevity is mostly a matter of genetics, and a heap of evidence supports that.
No one argues that a positive outlook on life FEELS better. It's definitely the way to go. But whether it produces per se a significant increase in lifespan seems doubtful to me.

[Lumpy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'W')ell, being bitter is better than being depressed & self-pitying. There is a certain energy & vigor that comes from righteous anger (more so than from resignation).

[uNkNowN ElEmEnt]

I always thought that when you were infused with righteous anger, it was the acid flowing through peoples systems that would keep them alive longer by killing off any potential invading bacteria.

Hence, my view that it is active and not passive types who live longer. You can be an active pessimist, or active angry type. but the passive positive people or passive bitter people who kick the bucket.

[Lumpy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('uNkNowN ElEmEnt', 'H')ence, my view that it is active and not passive types who live longer. You can be an active pessimist, or active angry type. but the passive positive people or passive bitter people who kick the bucket.

[uNkNowN ElEmEnt]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lumpy', 'W')ell, I don't know about your 'acid flowing through' idea, but presuming that was metaphor, I would have to agree with you.

Being pro-active seems to me to be the best way to get things done, AND to feel better (less helpless!) about life and one's place in it, AND to live better - and possibly longer as well.

However, I get myself into to trouble often with this attitude - because often people I work with, for example, would prefer status quo to doing the work required to improve a situation. (This goes for the co-workers and the patients as well, actually. Often there will be someone from each group who is mad at me because I am working toward change -- and they don't want to work at all!)

I don't deal well with laziness in thought or behavior. GRRRRRRRRR.

Lumpy

[Lumpy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('uNkNowN ElEmEnt', 'B')ut I think whether you are pessimist or optomist or any of the many shades inbetween the key is the person who continually looks for hope. I think hope is what makes the difference. If a person has no hope, they will die. If they have faith they will find hope at the end of the tunnel, they have a much better chance of surviving.

and that is what this is all about. surviving. Its a survival thing. those with hope will stay flexible and make plans even if those plans constantly need to change. its those who have to stay entrenched in ideas, a way of life or certain dogmas who will struggle and fight against change the most.